Ford Mustang Mach-E vs. Volkswagen ID.4 | Autoblog Podcast #692
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor, Green, John Beltz Snyder. John recently drove the Ford Mustang Mach-E California Route 1 and Volkswagen ID.4 Pro S back to back, and shares his thoughts from the comparison. Greg has been reacquainting himself with the Toyota 4Runner, and John has been sampling a diesel-powered Cadillac Escalade and doing some soft-roading in his Hyundai Palisade. Greg ruminates on what things would be like if John DeLorean had risen to the top of General Motors. Finally, they talk about Audi's wheelbase-shifting SkySphere electric roadster concept.
Send us your questions for the Mailbag and Spend My Money at: Podcast@Autoblog.com.
Video Transcript
[MUSIC PLAYING]
GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to "The Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today is senior editor for "All Things Green," John Snyder. What is up?
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Hey, hey, I'm just hunkered down during this crazy storm we're having right now.
GREG MIGLIORE: Apparently, it's heading East. You're out in Ann Arbor, and it just kept on going towards me.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: And it's wild. I actually just pulled the umbrella down from the picnic table because I was a little bit afraid it might get airborne, but the weather will pass, this too will pass, and we can talk about electric cars. If you're listening to this, you've probably already read John's-- John's story about the Volkswagen ID.4 versus the Ford Mustang Mach-E. Can't wait to talk about this. I've actually driven both these things.
So you wrote the comparo, and I've basically spent a couple of weeks in the spring driving each one of these. It was-- I don't think it was back-to-back weeks, but it was fairly close together, super psyched. I remember I had a good pizza actually each time I drove one of these cars. We won't do a pizza verdict, but we'll save some of that detail. I drove the 4Runner, which if we're thinking forward with the electrics, the 4Runner is definitely a step back in time.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, you have the Escalade Diesel, which is kind of a little bit of all-worlds there, forward Escalade, then you get the diesel, but I digress. And then you went off-roading in the Palisade, not a long-term Palisade, but your specific long-term Palisade.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Correct.
GREG MIGLIORE: So that's fun. We'll run through some news. I wrote an opinion piece this week on John Z. DeLorean. What if he ran General Motors?
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Oh my gosh, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's crazy, so check it out. I'd love to hear your feedback on this one. Get in the comments. Mix it up. A couple of really good Netflix documentaries out there about him in the last couple of years, and that's what kind of piqued my interest. A crazy concept from Audi, and, yeah, let's get into it. Mach-E versus ID.4. Yeah, I'm just kind of curious initial impressions. You've kind of got like the Mach-E, which is a little bit of a rock star if you will, as far as looks.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: ID.4 could be electric, might not, hard to say. You know, so they definitely approach the similar-- a similar mission from different ways. What was kind of like you're like just like feel from like aesthetically of these two things?
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Well, you know, the Mach-E was the one that got the attention in the-- in the parking lots. I had people come up and ask me about it. And, you know, it's a little bit mixed. There's still a few holdouts out there that are like-- just like I don't know about like a Mustang crossover. They're not so worried about it being electric, it's the crossover format that throws him off a little bit. But most people were-- were really receptive to it. The ID.4 is a little-- flies under the radar a little bit more. It's still new enough that people are kind of like what's that?
But, yeah, it's very like tidy looking and-- and very nice. Inside, it's-- it's very sleek and modern. And you know, the-- the Mach-E inside is with that big screen there, It's almost a little futuristic here and there but with some sports-car touches. But, yeah, definitely, the Mach-E was getting the most impression. I was driving-- I should specify, I was driving the Mach-E California Route 1, so the long-range rear-wheel-drive version, and the ID.4 Pro S, so the long-range rear-wheel drive version.
And, yeah, I like them both a lot quite a bit. Spoiler alert if you haven't read the article, I came down in favor of the Mach-E. It just-- it's-- it's more fun. In a straight line, it's just, it's fast. It's about a good second or so faster to 60 miles an hour.
And you know, it's got certain-- it's got-- I love that tech interface way better than what I had used on the Tesla Model 3. Plus you've got, with both of these, you do have a small like little sliver of a digital instrument cluster in front of you so. But despite the Mach-E having a lot of things buried in menus, I found it pretty easy to poke around and change things. And there's a lot of, you know, optimization and customization you can do within those menus, which I appreciate quite a bit.
The ID.4 starts a little cheaper. It is almost like five grand cheaper, about- it starts about 45,000, while the Mach-E California Route 1 starts about 50,000, you know, before rebates. But the ID.4 has heated seats, which this Mach-E didn't. It had a power passenger seat, which the Mach-E didn't. It had an auto-opening trunk, which the Mach-E didn't. It had a screen, a power screen for the sunroof, which the Mach-E didn't. But they're so similar in a lot of other ways in terms of space.
They're very, very similar in terms of space, except the Mach-E's got a frunk. It's got a pretty big frunk, while the ID.4 just has, you know, mechanicals underneath the hood. But the ID.4 does have a little bit more interior cargo space to make up for it. Yeah, both-- both backseats are about the same size. And the one thing that I really liked about the ID.4 though was the way it handled and its steering. It was very sharp turn-in, really quick to react.
I was driving down the road at one point, and there was something that looked like it could mess up my tires in the road that sort of snuck up on me, and I was able to dodge it real quick. Real snappy, very little body roll. The Mach-E feels a little bit when you try and turn that nose at speed, it feels a little bit like a boat that hasn't started planing yet. It's a little bit just a little bit sluggish in throwing its weight around, and the ID.4 is just, I feel like it transitions from corner to corner better.
It was very, very close. They're both very good ride and drive, very close in a lot of ways. I came down in favor of the Mach-E for driving assistance tech. It has a better-advanced driver assistance system and speed. It's a lot more fun to blast around town, and it's a little tail-happy, and it's-- it's fun. It's a hoot.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's-- it's interesting because-- so I drove these-- both these cars separately, not necessarily with the intention of doing a comparison, whereas you did, which is that's kind of how we do this. When somebody is going to do a compare and it's like, hey, you're comparing them.
But I mean, you just-- it's inevitable. Like literally, I drove-- you know, I drove them pretty close together in fact. And just the comparisons, you know, like I said, are so inevitable. I'm with you. The Mach-E, like a nose ahead. It's a little bit more fun. You know, the infotainment is better I think. I actually was a little annoyed with the Volkswagen infotainment.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, I think it's a little sluggish and--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --yeah, just not as robust.
GREG MIGLIORE: I almost in some ways can't totally pin that on-- because these cars, to me, their mission is like to be the standard bearers as electric vehicles for Ford and Volkswagen right now. So in a way, it's kind of like you're quibbling over the infotainment. But if you're going to get really granular here, people are cross-shopping, it's like, well, yeah, Ford's is better. That one is good. And I actually really like the interior of the Mach-E. It was, to me, very simple, not at all retro.
Like, to me, the actual--
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --like the Mustang interiors right now are still very retro, the big gauges, the vents. This is none of that. This could be Audi for all you know. It's like screens and then an empty real estate, and I loved it. I was like, hey, this is-- this is a step forward. This is-- sign me up for this.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Whereas the Volkswagen felt like a Volkswagen, which is fine, you know? But you know, to me, the Mustang evoked a little more passion, literally, from stem to stern, from the design, from the interior, you know, from the infotainment. And you know, to your point, I thought it did handle a little better. You know, it's a little more sorted in tune to be like sporty. It lives up enough to the idea of a Mustang that you can credibly put that horse on the car and not get too many people upset. You know, someday, I would love to see a true coupe electric Mustang.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Oh yeah, for sure.
GREG MIGLIORE: But for now, this is-- this is good for me.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, I mean, until they figure out how to make batteries smaller so they can have the car--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --ride a little bit lower and still have, you know, room for your feet and your legs inside the car, the, you know, crossover format is the way it's going to be a lot of the time. Another thing I should mention that the-- that this Ford has a big advantage over the Volkswagen is range. This-- this Mach-E, the California Route 1 is rated at 305 miles, while the ID.4 Pro S is 250, so you gain an extra 55 miles.
For most, you know, use cases, that's not going to matter. You're not going to drive that much in a day. But especially when you're trying to get a first-time EV buyer who hasn't figured out, you know, that range anxiety goes down quite a bit once you get used to being in the car. That extra 50, 55 miles of range is a big selling point for, especially, yeah, new-time EV drivers.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I think, I mean, to put it really simply, right now, if you're looking as far as like what kind of-- which EV do you want, you know, range anxiety is a thing because maybe you're new to the technology. You want to know, hey, I'm going to get where I'm going. I don't have to worry about charging until I get to like a charging point or maybe your home. And you know, it just depends on how much of like the lifestyle you want to, you know, really adapt to.
I mean, for me, I found charging both these things like just I loved doing it. I was like this is fun. I like charging my, you know-- my electric vehicle when I get home. You know, it's just, it was interesting. I drove both of these in like probably early to mid-winter, so it was like, I still had like some Christmas decorations in the way because I had just pulled down, and they were like at the front of the garage.
Like I got to move this box over here and string this chord over here, and experiencing them in the cold was obviously an interesting thing as well. What else separated them, I think, in your mind? I'm curious.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Just their-- their general styling and interfaces. Inside the Mustang, you know, there's-- there's hard buttons like you're used to. In the ID.4, it's a lot of touch-sensitive pieces of plastic. So you're sliding your finger across a piece of plastic that doesn't move with your finger instead of turning a dial or hitting an up or down button, which I don't know, to me, I think it's neat. It looks cool. It's just harder to be precise when you're trying to turn up the volume to a certain, you know, level.
Your finger kind of slides around on the thing, and there's really no real reference for how it should be. There's no haptic feedback on the buttons on the steering wheel for like audio controls and things like that and cruise control on the ID.4. There is a little haptic feedback. It gives a little-- a little vibration or a little-- a little tick to let you know that it almost feels like you're pressing a button, but the thing actually doesn't really depress under your thumb. So that was-- I thought it was neat in the ID-4.
I definitely thought the Mustang was more practical in that way. Also, the-- the Mach-E, you can use your phone as a key, which is kind of neat. And it was super easy to set up. It was just like two steps and so little things like that. There's lots of little things in the Mach-E menus you can choose. When you use adaptive cruise control, you can set it to the speed limit, and it'll change when the speed limit changes. It'll change the car's speed.
And you can set a tolerance. Say you want to-- I want to drive five miles over the speed limit whether it's 55 or 65. And so if I'm in a 55 zone and I'm going 60, and I hit a 70-miles-an-hour zone, it'll adjust the speed to 75 miles per hour, which is kind of cool. You can set it over or under, which is just a really nice little thing that I wish I had on my vehicle. Our Palisade, it will-- it will follow the speed limit if you have the cruise control set to the speed limit, but it doesn't have that tolerance like the Mach-E does.
The Mach-E also has a really good lane following, lane centering, while the ID.4 did not so. There's just little-- lots of little things like that that just make the Mach-E experience richer, and better, and more personalized.
GREG MIGLIORE: One thing I found interesting, and I sort of just realized this, is the Mach-E is larger. I actually, in my head, sort of dimensionally assumed the Volkswagen was actually larger, but the Mach-E is about 5 inches longer. So, you know, and, to me, the Mach-E didn't drive like this-- it drove incredibly like a Mustang crossover I would say, whereas, you know, the ID.4 felt kind of more like a Volkswagen smallish to midsize crossover.
So you know, it's some of the things aren't maybe as apparent as they might seem because my initial impressions were, hey, you know, you want the fun, the party car, get the Mach-E. You want maybe the crossover, get the ID.4. But that's not exactly true, you know? The Mach-E is a little bit bigger, and it's got a little bit more range, and it drives a little bit better. So I, frankly, would have the same conclusion that you reached and I see why you reached it.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, Yeah, I mean, I would be happy with living with either of these, but knowing that the Mach-E's out there, and how much fun it is, and how the personal touches, it'd just be hard to-- to choose that over the ID.4, for-- for me, even though the ID.4 is, you know, less expensive.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, so check out John's story. It's up on the site. By the time you're listening to this, it's actually been up for a little while, but do check that out, please. Send us, you know, get some comments in there. Tweet at us. We always love feedback on our comparison tests.
So let's talk about the Toyota 4Runner. I had this one just recently. This is the TRD Pro. Mine stickered for about $48,000. It was kind of like different shades of gray and black throughout, so really kind of a stealthy vehicle, looked good. It had the Yakima rack on top, so that just really, you know, looked like I was ready to go get something. And it's-- you know, it looked the part of the 4Runner, that's for sure. I always have a soft spot for the 4Runner I think it's so much fun to drive
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: And I just had a blast with it, to be honest.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, I mean, its-- it feels so old, but not really. I mean, some things are dated, but it feels like such a classic. And it's-- it's a hoot to drive, and it's super capable. It's a very capable vehicle off-road, and I think it looks cool too. It just looks tough and looks, you know, purpose-built. I like it quite a bit.
GREG MIGLIORE: Here's something that I-- you know, it's always good to question your assumptions. If you were going to take a guess, which would you say is the longest vehicle, the Bronco, the 4Runner, or the Wrangler, for considering it's a 4Runner, we'll consider four doors?
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: The Bronco.
GREG MIGLIORE: No, it's actually the 4Runner--
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: OK.
GREG MIGLIORE: --which does confirm what I thought, but as far as like the longest, like lengthwise, it's 190 in length, or 191 for the 4Runner. It's 188 for the Wrangler, and then it's 189 for the Bronco.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: OK.
GREG MIGLIORE: Now length can mean, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. But other dimensions, it's-- they're somewhat similar here. Like you know, we're talking like, let's see, the width is 76 for the 4Runner, inches, by the way, 74 for the Wrangler, and up to 79 for the Bronco, which I did recently drive the Bronco.
It's a very squat-type vehicle. I think you could actually sort of maybe feel that a little bit. But this is a kind of a long sort of geeky way of saying I always just kind of assumed the 4Runner was a little bit bigger than the Wrangler. And a lot of times--
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --we didn't necessarily really-- like it would be like, well, the Wrangler is its own thing, you know? It's more like, you know, push it against the G-Class or something. And the 4Runner is this like kind of bouncy, larger, SUV thing, which, you know, that's-- and I've driven a lot of 4Runners.
I don't even exactly know where I kind of got that idea in my head, but they're pretty close in size. But, to me, the 4Runner just still feels like more of a larger vehicle. You know, you get inside, and it just-- it feels like there's more space. I had no trouble throwing a car seat in there. This one in TRD Pro trim was a little bit off the ground, which was just awesome. Like you want to be like the rock star with like, you know, your kid, pull up in this thing. And, he's like hey, let's go. Where are we going? Climb in this, up the running boards.
You know, but to your point, John, it's pretty old, let's put it that way.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Five-speed transmission I mean that's like-- that's literally half the number of gears the Bronco has.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Right.
[LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: I mean, if you're talking about 270 horsepower, that actually is the one area I would complain a little bit. Like last year, two years ago, when all you're doing is maybe being cross shock with the Wrangler, you can fight the Pentastar V6 with that, you know?
Because Jeep people, and people who are truly doing powertrain analysis, yeah, they'll look at like that four-cylinder turbo. They'll maybe look at the diesel on the Wrangler. And now the Wrangler will literally offer you everything from a Hemi V8 to a plug-in hybrid.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So it's like it's whatever you want it to be. But you know, the 4Runner to me, that powertrain, and it's-- it reflects the fact that it's an old vehicle. And I mean, like merging on the Expressway you're like, OK, we're going to like we're halfway down the on-ramp. We're going to really put this thing to the floor so we get some like, a tailwind here.
That, to me, is definitely an area you could improve. Like, get over 300 horsepower. Maybe make a little more torquey. I realize these are just like you're either taking it off-road, in which case horsepower really doesn't matter that much. You've already got all the gear you need, the off-road gear, or you're just doing like kind of suburban cruising, in which case, again, 270 horsepower is about the same.
Some of these Broncos and Jeeps, I think actually are a little bit overpowered if you will. You know, they're a riot to drive. Let me back up and put that out there, but it's a little bit of a dated powertrain. But I mean, just the rest of it, love the looks.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: And you know, they've done some things over the years to keep the interior just a little bit, you know, updated. I mean, to me, you know, if you asked me emotionally, which of those three do you want? I mean, metrically, I think, I had just said the 4Runner's a little-- excuse me, the Bronco is the best of the bunch because it handles the best on the road with that independent front suspension.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: You know, to me, that handles the best, but then Jeep is always going to be Jeep. But then, for me, just my like illogical mind loves the 4Runner, so that's how I'd put them all together if I were going to spend some money. So and this one would be pretty close to what I would get. I wouldn't get the Yakima rack. I don't need that. But 48 grand, the average new car, vehicle, was 42 in July. It seems like a pretty good deal to me.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, not bad. And for something that, you know, has a reputation, it'll stand up. It'll-- you could have that forever.
GREG MIGLIORE: But-- but, yeah, nice interior. But obviously, now that I've sort of put my like, you know, just positive part, you know, yeah, they need to do some work on this thing as far as like the power train. I don't-- I'm not a big fan of Toyota's infotainment system.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: You, know it's not great, Bob, but, you know, there's no deal-breakers here. I mean, if you're just like which one do you like? 4Runner could easily be the one you come down with, you know, so.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, I wouldn't fault anyone for-- for choosing any of those for whatever reasons they have for them. They all offer something different, you know? And there's not much else out there to-- to pick from, you know? If you're going that very, you know, specific route of looking for something that's really off-road capable.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's true, it's true. What-- if I'm remembering right, your family's like Land Cruiser like back in the day.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, my dad had a couple of Land Cruisers.
GREG MIGLIORE: Nice.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, back when I was learning to drive, he had one, and that was cool.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Didn't do a lot of off-roading in it that I recall, but then I started going off-road when I got my sister's Blazer as a hand-me-down, and then-- and then I got a Jeep Cherokee. And then I started going off-road like crazy.
[LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: So did you go off-roading in the Hyundai Palisade?
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yes, I did sort of.
[LAUGHTER]
GREG MIGLIORE: Kind of an awkward transition, but you know.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: No, yeah, so I was off for two weeks and we spent a lot of our time up North at our-- at our cottage, which is a little South of Sheboygan, Michigan, Lake Huron side of the state if-- if people are unfamiliar. And one day we ran into town because there's really nothing near us for 20 miles, so we ran into town to get some groceries.
And on the way back, I was-- my wife was driving, and I was poking around at the map and noticed that there was all these little trails, you know, off to the side of the highway that were actually on the car's navigation system. And we said, hey, let's-- let's, you know, see how far we can go if we went down these little-- these little two-track trails through these big mud holes, and, you know, it's super, super sandy there too.
But, yeah, we got this thing super dirty. We got funny looks from dudes in their Side by Sides saying like what are you doing do with a Hyundai on these trails? But it was great. It was fun, and we didn't really have any, you know, hairy spots where we thought we were going to get stuck despite being in, you know, sand that was under like a foot of water.
It was really fun just sort of exploring these little-- these little trails that are sort of seasonal little recreational trails. And some the them the-- it tried to route us down private trails too, so we had to back up for a ways. There was no way to turn around, so we just had to go back, which is fine with the good parking cameras and stuff. It was super easy to-- to maneuver out of there. And, yeah, didn't even have to hit the-- the all-wheel drive, like the diff lock button at all. And it was-- it was really fun. We'll definitely be doing more of that.
Going to end up with some Arizona pinstripes on the Palisade probably prematurely, but-- but I mean, that's why we have it. We have it so we can go up there and-- and bring our stuff and get to places. And-- and, yeah, it's really good for that. It was a lot of fun. It was-- I was surprised with how confident it felt pretty far off the beaten path. And-- and it was my wife, it was her like first time doing some of that kind of driving and stuff, and she was a natural. It's just-- it's a good car for it. We love it.
GREG MIGLIORE: So I'm curious, do you have a 20-- we should back up here. "Autoblog" has a long-term '21 Hyundai Palisade. John took it to the Outer Banks of North Carolina. You know, we've all been going through the Palisade here. I'm literally ready to go steal it from somebody. I miss that vehicle. But John's family was-- they were like, hey, this is great. We need a vehicle. And they went out and bought their own Palisade.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, well, almost exactly the same as-- as our long-termer, the all-wheel-drive Calligraphy.
GREG MIGLIORE: Calligraphy, I-- sorry, I have to jump in here. I think that is like the most stellar trim on the Palisade, just the interior features you get, I think it's a home run.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, at first, I was, you know, when we were looking, we were like, ah, we don't need the-- we don't need like the quilted leather, we don't need--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, but the quilted leather's so nice.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --the microfiber headliner.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, the headliner is nice.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: But, you know, it was like, gosh, it's really not much more expensive than how we would equip a--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --the next trim down, the Limited I think. It was like pretty much the same. It was almost, you know, the only thing-- the only thing I don't like about the Calligraphy is I'm not-- I'm not a fan of those wheels. I'm not a fan--
GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, interesting. I like the wheels.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --of that wheel design. It's-- it's too-- too busy for me.
GREG MIGLIORE: Interesting. I like those wheels.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Cat doesn't mind it, and, yeah. So I mean, it's-- it's her-- it's her daily driver, so and, yeah, we're really happy with it. We put a ton of miles on it already too, you know, just going up North and back, and driving it all around, and taking the kids places, and it's serving us really, really well. We're very comfortable in it. My son might be a little too comfortable in it as his part of the car is always a disaster with like dino toys, and-- and things like-- and snacks and stuff. But, yeah, it's-- it's a perfect family vehicle for us.
The only thing I could ask for would be, you know, some form of electrification, and that, of course, would come with more cost. But-- but, yeah, for something we sacrifice a bit on-- on fuel economy, we're used to-- the car it replaced was a smaller diesel crossover and that was-- easily get, you know, 35, even up to 38 miles per gallon on the highway.
That was nice. That-- that's the hardest part, I think, to give up. But we needed-- we just needed more space. And-- and everything about the car, we just love it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Nice. I think in a few years, just vehicles like this are going to be able to get like some sort of light hybrid maybe even not a light hybrid, a plug-in.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Well, 2024, Hyundai will be launching a Palisade-sized-ish sized EV, full EV, so that might be in our future.
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds good to me.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, we'll probably-- we'll probably hold onto this one for a long time. We tend to hold onto cars for a long time. But-- but, you know, by the time it comes to replace this one, there's going to be some more options that will fit our lifestyle even better.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think in some ways, that's where I'm a little reticent to go run out and buy a car, even though we've been already thinking about, you know, upgrading from our, like, family Truckster because I'm curious, like, you know, plus with all of like, you know, the different tax incentives and rebates that are being literally considered on the floor of Congress, like the whole like-- like financial equation could change in like a week, a month, a year, so.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: And seeing the way the costs are coming down. I mean--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: The-- like look at the, you know, I mean, the Maverick's a hybrid, but the F-150, the Lightning.
GREG MIGLIORE: The Lightning's a screaming deal, man.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, it's-- it's promising for-- for those of us who want to, you know, buy an EV but have been wary of-- of the cost-- of the upfront cost. Yeah, the future's looking a little bit brighter in that way.
GREG MIGLIORE: What's encouraging about the Lightning is that's a pretty standard F-150 in many ways. Make that an Explorer or an Expedition, same price point. Doesn't have to have all the bells and whistles, but give me that power train, and sign me up.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's my next family hauler, you know? I mean, that's where you-- you start to really mainstream it and get it to, you know, where it can be like-- like the Palisade or something where-- you know, it's funny you mentioned cleaning it up with your son with the dinos.
Like, when I handed that thing off to our consumer editor, Jeremy Korzeniewski, who was very excited to come up here and get it, he dropped off a Supra. And he was, after driving up here, he was like get me out of the Supra. My back is killing me. 75 is not the road to drive a Toyota Supra on. He was looking forward to the Palisade. Long story short, I actually spent like a day cleaning the Palisade after like I'm like a month plus of family use. Like, oh my gosh, you know? It was like the dog's little cocoon.
Like, she's a Golden Retriever, so she just sheds more fur in a day than most dogs have in like their lifetime. Oh my gosh. But you know one thing that was great about the 4Runner is this-- for whatever reason, this TRD Pro had like the rubber floor mats.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So you just literally pull those things out, turn the hose on, you know? Food, wrappers, barf, whatever you got to clean up, you can be solved with a hose so.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, that's one thing we got in this-- in this Palisade, the one we bought, is it has the-- the rubber floor mats.
GREG MIGLIORE: Nice, that's a good move.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, it's-- and it's easier, definitely easier to clean out. Just because that-- the dog hair just sort of weaves its way into the fabric, and especially if our dog, Jimmy, his white hairs-- he's a black-- he's black and white-- and his white hair specifically is very, I don't know-- stringy, and it just gets stuck in between the fibers, and it's hard to get out. But, yeah, if I can just pull off those floor mats and the wind will blow it away, it's quite nice.
GREG MIGLIORE: I'm always amazed how dog hair can find its way anywhere into a car and also anywhere like in your life.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Like, I'll like literally be like I'll pour a cup of coffee, and I'm like, oh, there's some fur in there, OK. I'll just skim that out, and away we go but.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, hey, I don't even have to take the dog near a car for it to get dog hair in it. It just hitches a ride on, you know, our clothes and luggage.
GREG MIGLIORE: Well, speaking of family haulers, you had the Escalade Diesel. Can wrap up the review section here, a few quick thoughts on that. This is interesting. I drove the Suburban Diesel, and I drove the Yukon, I think it was the XL Diesel actually. So this now completes the hat trick here of large General Motors diesels as far as the body on frame SUVs, the really big ones anyway. What did you think of it?
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: It's funny. I was-- my first time getting in it and driving it, You know, I was just down the road to take my son to karate, and I uttered just at the end of our street I was like, no, I don't like it.
[LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Really? OK.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: And he was like why don't you like it? I'm like it's too big. It's too big, but I don't know, after driving it a little bit more, it's definitely an improvement over the last one big time. It just feels-- the quality is-- is just-- it's so much nicer.
The diesel engine, it struggles a little bit. You know, it's nice and torquey.
GREG MIGLIORE: Very torquey, yeah.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: It's got really good down-low torque. It's 277 horsepower, and 460-pound feet of torque. But, yeah, like getting on the highway or something, it runs out of steam real quick. But it's also got Super Cruise which works really well, so that's fun to use on the highway. I've driven the new-- the updated Super Cruise in the Bolt EUV and now I'm-- I'm testing it in this Escalade.
But, yeah, the-- man, 277 horsepower for something that huge, it just-- yeah, it just-- it doesn't have staying power, you know? It's got grunt down low, which it needs because it's-- it's just so big, so heavy, but I don't know. It's kind of-- I like the thought of it. I love the idea of-- of an inline-- an I-6 diesel.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: And I don't know. It's just-- it doesn't really-- and it doesn't really feel or sound like a diesel.
GREG MIGLIORE: So I like that actually. I thought that was kind of made it a little more natural.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, it's a little smoother, yeah, in, you know, in sound than, yeah, than other diesel engines I've used. But I don't know, Yeah, because some of those-- a lot of them are pretty quiet, especially a lot of the, you know, Turbo 4 diesels are nice and quiet. And then there are others like the-- it was like a year, two years ago maybe we had a diesel Wrangler at the office, and that thing was loud.
GREG MIGLIORE: That was a torquey ride, I thought. I also thought it had a similar like, you know, it didn't have enough steam as far as being on the Expressway though, like, you know, good around town with all that torque, but then it's like you got to really get moving on the-- you know, on the highway. But that's a diesel thing too.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: It is. It is. But I really like the-- the interior. I really like the-- those curved OLED displays. They're beautiful, and they're deployed in a very sort of creative way with, you know, one sort of behind another. And so there's different digital readouts off to the side, and it all looks really nice, and everything sort of has a nice space for it on-- on these screens.
It's well-utilized, and I like that quite a bit. And then, yeah, it's just super spacious inside. Wally really felt like a king back there with the rear-seat entertainment, and the captain's chairs, and tons and tons of space. It is-- but yeah, it's big. It's big, and it's-- it's I don't know, it's a little sluggish with that diesel.
GREG MIGLIORE: I-- we had the Suburban Diesel around the holidays. It's crazy how fast this year has gone by. And this was actually kind of in the midst of like yet another wave of COVID, and there was again, not a lot to do at that point if I'm remembering right. And we like lived in the Suburban for a while. Like we took it to light shows. It's like, hey, let's go to the one 40 miles away, you know?
We put the dog back there and she could walk around the back. And she's a big dog, so when like your dog is taking a lap around the back, you know it's a big vehicle. You know, it's a large vehicle, let me put it that way. And I think that's where like things like the Palisade can make inroads, if you will, to use kind of a bad cliche, it's because they handle so much better than these large like truck-based SUVs. If you want this, then nothing else will do for sure.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Right, yeah, exactly.
GREG MIGLIORE: Like if this is your recipe, eat it up, you know? If it's not, then there's a lot of other options for you. I like it. I could see myself maybe like doing a Tahoe or something. I don't think that my lifestyle would ever need a Suburban, you know? But you do get a lot more space back there than you used to with Suburban, Escalade, Yukon XL.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Because they did put in independent rear suspension on these things for the new generation, a lot more room back there. I remember we used to go camping in-- let's see, "Autoblog," for some reason, had a bunch of Tahoe's in the spring, like-- of like '18, '17, '18. And I-- literally, or maybe they just kept coming my way. I don't know, but we camped in one, and it was fine. But this was even like I feel like before kids and the dog, and we were still like, you know, we fill this thing up pretty easily, you know?
Whereas now it's like there's room back there in these large GM vehicles. And you know, for what they are, you know, they're the rock stars of the large, you know, vehicle segment. And General Motors has a very large sales edge, I believe, just taken their portfolio as a whole, and, you know, they kind of in some ways own the market. But what I think is interesting is you're like I like the Escalade but I'd like it to be a little bit smaller.
And maybe like a midsize Escalade to round out that Cadillac lineup, might be a good idea here, Cadillac. You want to fight the Navigator, or the Aviator, or go down the food chain a little bit? It might be a good idea.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: But that Escalade does have-- definitely has presence.
GREG MIGLIORE: Indeed. When I had the Yukon, one of my neighbors was like you're looking pretty presidential today.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: The new Yukon and Suburban, they just look fantastic.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I love the lights.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I'd see them in parking lots, and I'd-- I just think they look really nice. They got a nice profile.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right, so that's the review section. And since we're talking about GM, let's talk about one of our more recent columns written by me. Usually, on the podcast, I try to pick somebody's brain about what their recent column was, but my number came up. This week, it was my turn to kick off our third batch. I'll say this, if there's any topics you really want us to get really opinionated-- opinionated on, whether it's on the podcast, or just explore it in written form, drop me a line.
Drop us a podcast line at Podcast@Autoblog.com. But I took a kind of an alternative history-- an alternate-history approach here with my most recent column. I posed the question, what if John Z. DeLorean ran General Motors? Kind of wild, right?
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's interesting. Your family goes back to this era of GM, I mean.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, my-- my grandpa sort of worked alongside-ish. Like my grandpa was at Oldsmobile-- general-- general manager of Oldsmobile at the time. And so they were under the GM umbrella. But they were all the different divisions were competing against one another then too, which was-- sort of made it an exciting time for GM. They-- they had a lot going on, you know? When you're-- when you're trying to outdo the others in your own company, you know, good things are bound to come from it.
GREG MIGLIORE: I-- and maybe in some ways you should have written this column because you're like literally one degree of separation here as far as like sort of knowing the guy. What do you think? I'm curious. Do you think had you stuck around, what-- what do you think would have happened?
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I don't know. I think you got it-- I think you got it kind of right that I don't know if he would have liked it all that much getting bogged down in the, you know, running of the whole operation. He-- he wanted to design cars. You know, he would have-- he would have definitely liked the spotlight on him, but I don't know. He was-- he was a pretty passionate guy, and-- and, yeah, I think he could better express that passion as, you know, leading a single brand or, you know, in the design studio.
GREG MIGLIORE: He a-- you know, so what piqued my interest as I was watching one of the newer Netflix documentaries called "Myth and Mogul," pretty good if you got some time. There's frankly not a ton of stuff on TV right now. Football hasn't really started. Check it out. It's pretty good, and I learned a lot about the guy. A lot-- there's a lot of parallels between DeLorean and Elon Musk. I think that's natural.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: People have been making those comparisons for years. You know, but, I mean, what's interesting to me though, and this is where like my sort of touchstone was-- was he was really close to actually running GM. This isn't like a hypothetical. He was vice president of like cars and trucks, which is like everything. That would be the equivalent of like Mark Reuss, who's president of GM right now, like the number two, three, somewhere in there.
And he did run Chevy and Pontiac, which were bigger than-- they were bigger back then than the entire company is right now, let's put it that way, which is still pretty big. So he's closer than people think. And I actually also, the "Back to the Future" movies, obviously, the DeLorean car is iconic. I knew a little bit about him, but not as much as maybe some people do if you will. Like. I kind of approached it as more like, oh, you know, car things on Netflix. Let's check this out, you know?
And the more I like sort of learned or in some cases were like refreshed on, just the more intrigued I became, you know? Because, again, it's it's not exactly some like footnote to history where it's like, oh, this guy worked at GM. Wouldn't it be cool if he ran it? Like wouldn't it be cool if Elon Musk ran Mercedes? Well, yeah, it would-- would be interesting, but it never ever came close to happening. Whereas this, a couple of things change course, who knows?
So I mean, I don't know. Like you said, John, you summed up my point pretty good, which is, you know, he might have run things for a bit. Had he made it to that point, he probably would have probably ended up being more conformist than he became in other-- out on his own. Probably would run the show for five years. You would have read his obituary in automotive news and 2005, and it would have just been-- been another dead guy from GM. As it is, he became this cultural icon. And you know, it's-- it's just, it's wild, you know?
I mean, it's you know, I actually-- this is maybe I'm showing my like Michigander bias here. I always somehow put them in like the Hollywood bucket, you know? In-- for justifiable reasons. Then I'm like reading more about him and I'm like this guy went to Cass Tech. He went to Michigan. He went to Lawrence Tech. Like this guy was like, you know, born and raised in Michigan, not that that matters at all. But like he was like archetypal GM, you know? As much before he went like on his own, you know? So it's, I don't know. That part of it, I found very interesting. It let me down this "what if" road, so.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, he was a true and legitimate car guy, just sort of larger than life, which with larger-than-life characters running things, it's always-- it's always a crapshoot. You just don't know whether they'll be too concerned in the details and try and manage every brand, or will they let them have their own freedom to-- to explore ideas and stuff like that?
And also, the personalities like that, not everyone gets along with them. And that-- that could be a big-- big problem as Tesla sometimes finds out. But, I don't know, depending on how-- how rock star you get you just know that might not matter at all. Just in your presence is all that's needed. Have someone else do the-- do the nitty-gritty.
GREG MIGLIORE: If you can pull it off, then you can pull it off, you know? That's kind of how it works I guess. You know it reminds me of like Bob Lutz, a little bit of Henrik Fisker, Elon Musk. And these are all like definitely different versions of similar types of characters. Obviously, they all took different paths, so, you know, interesting times. Man, it would be fun to have a beer with like your grandpa and John DeLorean at some point 50 years ago but.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I'm not certain that they got along all that well or were very compatible.
[LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, well.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: They were very different people.
[LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah that DeLorean left GM in '73. That is what I've been kind of researching now and--
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --it sounds like he sort of was told to leave, although in one of the great-- this is where personality can really, you know, compensate if you will. Like depending on what you read, either he left or was told to leave, or whatever you believe. The more things I read, it sounds more like it was kind of like you might want to leave sort of thing. But you know, there's "New York Times" things where he like told people like, hey, I'm leaving because I want to leave, you know? And he like just rewrote history, so you know? Yeah.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So this Audi Skysphere concept, sphere concept, what do you think of this thing?
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: It's neat. It's-- it's basically, its party trick's that it can change its wheelbase by-- by about 10 inches. But, yeah, it's an electric vehicle, and it's very sleek looking, very nice looking. It's going to be at Pebble. And it looks really cool. It's a, you know, two-seater, but, yeah, it has a wheelbase that can extend or contract based on the kind of driving you want to do.
Do you want-- if you want to tackle some tight like tail-of-the-dragon type of road, you go with the smaller footprint. And you want to stretch out on-- as your bombing it along the interstate for days at a time, some sort of grand tour? Stretch it out. But, yeah, it's-- it's pretty neat stuff from Audi, a lot of digitalization, and, yeah, I think it just looks cool. But yeah, it's that-- that adjustable wheelbase that's the big party trick.
GREG MIGLIORE: This is one of the more far-out things I've seen in a while, you know, just the idea of, hey, adjust the wheelbase. So it's-- that's what I love about concept cars. And I think, you know, Monterrey is a very interesting place to do it. You know, I think without auto shows, maybe you see this at New York or something in a normal year. But, hey, sure, throw it at Monterrey. Makes a lot of sense.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I think-- I doubt we'll be seeing an adjustable-wheelbase Audi any time soon.
GREG MIGLIORE: No.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: But it's kind of a clever way to gauge public opinion of whether they like the shorter wheelbase or longer wheelbase format of the car.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's true, yeah. Yeah, it's adaptable, DeLoreanesque.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, but, yeah, it looks-- it looks really cool. And you know, rear-wheel drive, 623 horsepower, 553-pound feet of torque, you know? And it's really, really low slung with a lot of the-- a lot of the weight over the rear axle. And it just sounds like it would be-- have some really fun driving dynamics, especially in that short wheelbase format.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, all that power. Sign me up for that.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, yeah, so we're going to be seeing more and more things like this from Audi. There's going to be a Grand Sphere and an Urban Sphere coming out in the coming months. And one of them is-- the Grand Sphere is-- they've sort of teased it, but it looks like a really another, like, really long, low slung, but a sedan, sort of more of a luxury vehicle than a-- than a performance vehicle. Although I'm sure as with any concept car, they can just give it any performance they want. But they haven't announced that-- that much on the Grand Sphere yet.
GREG MIGLIORE: I'm excited to hear more about this. I think they-- Audi is really kind of being very un-Audi-like in some ways. They're like kind of getting out there, out of their comfort zone.
JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, yeah, they are. I mean, they're-- they're charging full-speed ahead with-- with the EVs, and so I'm glad to see they're out there trying things. Throw stuff at the walls and see what sticks, you know? It probably won't be that changing wheelbase, but it might be, you know, some other element from-- from these concepts.
I mean, if you look at the-- the-- like the e-tron GT, it looks very much like the concept car. And the other e-tron vehicles, they look very much like their concept vehicles. So they're-- they're testing out some-- some real-world looks and performance with this stuff, even if they do some wacky things here and there. So, yeah, it's exciting to see what they're-- what they're thinking of and exploring and experimenting with. It should be-- it should be cool.
GREG MIGLIORE: It sounds good. Well, we could leave it there. I think that's a good way to sum up the podcast. If you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, Android, wherever you get your podcasts. Send us your Spend My Moneys-- that's Podcast@Autoblog.com. Be safe out there, and we'll see you next week.
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