Dana White talks 'TUF,' Jon Jones, Ngannou-Lewis and more
UFC president Dana White previews the upcoming season of "The Ultimate Fighter" which debuts on ESPN+ on June 1.
Video Transcript
KEVIN IOLE: Hey, everybody. I am Kevin Iole, welcome to Yahoo Sports. My guest now is the president of the UFC, Dana White. The 29th season-- that's dating us-- the 29th season of "The Ultimate Fighter" begins on June 1 on ESPN plus. Dana White is here to talk to me about it. Dana, I guess you get asked this a lot, but how does this season of "The Ultimate Fighter" compare to seasons past?
DANA WHITE: Well, I think if you're a fan of "The Ultimate Fighter" you know what to expect. I think you're going to love this season the most important thing to me is the fights are great. When the fights are great, everything else comes together. And I think it's going to be a great finale too.
KEVIN IOLE: You had indicated, at least for a while, that you were thinking of not doing "The Ultimate Fighter" anymore. Ultimately, what ended up getting you to move forward--
DANA WHITE: When did I say that?
KEVIN IOLE: You said that-- when the ESPN deal was coming out, you had said you weren't sure what the future of "The Ultimate Fighter" was, that type of thing.
DANA WHITE: I've been pretty adamant about bringing it back. You know, no matter where it was going to end up-- I didn't know if ESPN was going to end up taking "The Ultimate Fighter," but I was going to find a way for "The Ultimate Fighter" to come back. And obviously, with the success that we've had with ESPN and ESPN plus, it ended up being a no-brainer that that's where it would go.
KEVIN IOLE: Yeah. I want to ask you this-- I mean, I was a big fan of "The Ultimate Fighter" in the early days, but then I think the last couple of seasons kind of wore me down, where I would fast forward and watch nothing but the fight, right? Because all the baloney that would go on in the house and all the stuff that was on there kind of got wearisome. Did it ever bother you, and do you think that you needed to do some creative retooling to it so all the nonsense that seemed to happen in the house would not necessarily be front and center?
DANA WHITE: No, I mean, it is what it is. One of the things that I loved about the show and one of the things that I think has made it so successful is from day one we laid out an outline of what the show would be. And once we got on set and started filming it all just happened. And these are all things that happened-- these guys get the house and no girls, no family, no contact with the outside world. You get a little you get a little nutty and then you get some drinking involved and it gets even nuttier. But it's all real. I mean, this is what really happens it's-- you want to talk about a reality show, this this one's as real as it gets, so we don't mess with it. It is what it is.
KEVIN IOLE: You know, being on ESPN plus, obviously ESPN plus is getting a great deal of subscribers-- helped a lot by Disney Plus, certainly Disney Plus as got an overwhelming amount of subscribers. But are you happy with it being exclusively streaming as opposed to being on television and not having that television element?
DANA WHITE: Yeah I mean-- listen, we've been killing it on ESPN plus. Like you said, they have massive numbers-- these guys have bigger numbers than some of the networks do that are on cable TV. And I like the fact that once it airs, you can go in and watch it whenever you want to.
KEVIN IOLE: Right.
DANA WHITE: So, and it doesn't mean that it won't replay on TV, either. We do these things sometimes halfway through the season where they'll run-- if it's up to episode five, they'll run the first five episodes on ESPN, ESPN two, or ABC, who knows. But that definitely doesn't mean it won't be on TV.
KEVIN IOLE: Right. OK. You said it's going to be a good season, you can't wait till the finale. You in the past have been out talking about some of the stars that are coming out. And I remember your famous comment it turned out to be Philipe Nover, the next Anderson Silva. Do you see anybody in the field that's like that-- that caught your eye, that you say, hey, I think this guy can be a star in the UFC.
DANA WHITE: Yeah, I wouldn't say that anybody stands out where I would talk about like Phillipe or, like, Uriah Hall or even Rose.
KEVIN IOLE: Right.
DANA WHITE: When she was on the season. But there are definitely some good kids on this thing. I don't know-- if you look at, I always like to point out Kelvin Gastelum. He was picked dead last, dead last. The coaches evaluated him, he was picked last, he won the season. Even over, who I thought at the time had the potential to become a world champion, Uriah Hall. Beat him in the finale. And today I mean, I don't know what year was does anybody know what year he was in?
- What year?
DANA WHITE: Kelvin Gastelum.
- That was Tough 17 with Chael Sonnen, so 2002.
DANA WHITE: Tough 17-- in 2000 what?
- Oh, no, 2005 plus 17 seasons, so eight years. So like 2013.
KEVIN IOLE: I think it was 2014, I think.
DANA WHITE: OK, so it's like eight years ago, right? The guy's still ranked in the top 10 in the UFC. It's crazy.
KEVIN IOLE: I've talked to you about this a lot, and I'm still a believer that you're doing a lot better with the Contender Series and even Looking For A Fight than you are you are with TUF. It seems like you're bringing more UFC-ready fighters into the company than you did with TUF. I mean do you have any thought on the readiness of this year's fighters to get contracts and fight in the UFC?
DANA WHITE: I think if you look at what we offer now, we have something for everybody. Next Saturday night may not be for you, you'll go online and you'll see people like, this card sucks. All right, well, you don't like that card, well I'll bet you like June 12th, right, you got Adesanya versus Vettori plus a lot of other great cards. We have fight nights, we have pay-per-views, we have "The Ultimate Fighter." We have "The Contender" series. We have "Lookin' For A Fight." we got a pretty big menu with a lot of different-- all those shows are different, they're all completely different and appealing in their own ways. Some people will like everything. Some people like a couple of things. And some people will like one. I would say we have a big enough menu now that we have, there's something for everybody.
KEVIN IOLE: You know, I guess what I was getting at was not necessarily whether you like the show or not, like TUF has kind of passed me by, but the quality of the athletes is, I guess, what I'm getting to. It seems like more-- you have a lot more success getting higher-level athletes and and stars coming out of the Contender Series now. I know you've had champions on TUF and Hall of Famers on TUF, so I don't mean to, I'm not trying to dog that entity. I'm just saying it seems like the Contender Series is more consistently producing you relevant, high-level fighters for you. Were you--
DANA WHITE: But it's the same pool, same pool of athletes that we're pulling from, so-- I mean, these guys that are coming into "The Ultimate Fighter" could have gone straight on "The Contender" series, you know what I mean? The difference is with TUF-- TUF, you get a deeper dive into who are these people, what's their personality like it's for people who like reality TV and like to see more and know more.
KEVIN IOLE: Interesting.
DANA WHITE: You don't know a guy-- for you guys, you'll watch the Contender Series and you get Sean O'Malley, who's out there with these spectacular knockouts, got a great personality and all this other stuff. But you'd actually get to know more about him if he was on "The Ultimate Fighter."
KEVIN IOLE: Yeah. Kevin Holland being another one, Kevin Holland would have driven everybody crazy in the house, you could have never had him in there.
DANA WHITE: Yeah, it would have been interesting.
KEVIN IOLE: Let's segway, and I guess the big news today that came out, the former Golden Boy CEO, Richard Shafer-- a really solid guy, I've known and known Richard for many years, Announced-- or John Jones announced that he had--
DANA WHITE: You know what I would have know, though if I put Kevin Holland in "The Ultimate Fighter?" I'd have seen him under different types of pressure.
KEVIN IOLE: Yeah.
DANA WHITE: And I would have known what he could deal with or what he couldn't deal with coming off "The Ultimate Fighter."
KEVIN IOLE: Well, you know, I give him credit-- he's up there in San Jose training with DC and AKA, so trying to learn wrestling. So I think he's shown he can deal with stuff. Some people say he was humiliated and I say, hey, you know what, he's a tremendous fighter who has one weakness and he's working on it. I give him a lot of credit.
DANA WHITE: I agree. But let me tell you what, the pressure cooker that is "The Ultimate Fighter--" it takes a different type of mentality to come off that show than it does the Contender Series.
KEVIN IOLE: Sure, I get that. Going back into what I'm saying Richard Shafer was hired as John Jones's advisor. I talked to Richard today, had a lot of-- I said, what are you going to get into MMA promoting? And his first line was, no, Dana is the best, so I'm not getting into that. So you know he is hopeful that he can negotiate a deal with you for a fight with Francis Ngannou. To me, I still think that's the biggest fight you can make and that's the fight people really want to see. What do you make of John hiring Richard Shafer and is that a positive in your eyes?
DANA WHITE: Yeah, I like Richard Shafer, I respect the guy. Known him for a long time and he's a real deal guy and he's a guy that gets deals done. So, we will see.
KEVIN IOLE: He said to me today, I thought you would appreciate this, not that it's really significant, but I'll just add it to the conversation because people get a kick out of it. He said I've known Dana for a while and I have a nice relationship with him. He said, we like the same people in boxing and we hate the same people in boxing. And I didn't ask him who he was talking about but I have a feeling I know
DANA WHITE: Yeah, yeah that is true. He and I are very alligned on who we like and don't like.
KEVIN IOLE: So anyway, we'll skip on to the next one. So I guess that begs the question, if he's out there pitching you, working you on a Jones Ngannou fight and he's telling me he thinks it can be a million and a half or more selling pay-per-view fight. Is the Lewis fight done is Derrick Lewis signed is that happening or is there still time that John Jones can end up fighting Ngannou in the next championship fight?
DANA WHITE: Yeah, no Derrick Lewis is getting that fight.
KEVIN IOLE: So that's a done deal.
DANA WHITE: Yeah, my people were just telling me that John Jones came out yesterday and said he's not fighting until next year.
KEVIN IOLE: He might not fight until next year. Yeah, I don't think he said definitely not, but he said he might not. Yeah, 2022. He's patient he wants to be ready to fight at heavyweight.
DANA WHITE: OK.
KEVIN IOLE: If-- I assume if you offered them the fight with Francis Ngannou, he might take that fight, though.
DANA WHITE: Listen, man, this is the way I look at John Jones-- if he shows up, that's awesome if he doesn't show up, he's had a great run. Going out on top and it's not a bad thing either.
KEVIN IOLE: I remember you flew-- where was it, Venezuela? An Island, to make-- was it Couture, no, Brock Lesnar and Fedor, right?
DANA WHITE: Right.
KEVIN IOLE: But, so you went to that great-- this seems like at least as big a fight as that, right? I mean, you don't seem to have that same sense of urgency to get Jones and against Francis and I don't quite understand it. I mean, I get Derrick Lewis has won fights and Derrick has looked good but to me, you're talking Jones and Francis who's just the greatest fighter of all time against the greatest puncher of all time.
DANA WHITE: Yeah, but I've been doing the John Jones thing for like 10 years, I know how this thing works. It's-- it's, you know, Jon Jones is a-- is a different animal. Listen, if I came to a deal with-- with Brock Lesnar and-- and Fedor at the time, you know, both these guys, you know, wanted to fight each other. They wanted to go out and compete and-- and whatever, that-- that-- that's not Jon. Jon is just on-- you know, Jon's one of those guys-- I mean, Jon's one of those guys that could have had blown this sport open.
I mean, he could have had a Nike deal where he had shoes with Nike for the next, you know, 25, 30 years after he retired and-- and stuff like that. And you know, I don't know. I get excited when I know Jon's really coming in, and he's going to fight. So I've sort of set myself up for if he doesn't, he doesn't. Jon Jones could go out on top. And if he retires tomorrow-- he called tomorrow and retired-- said I retire, you know, I wouldn't be shocked. I wouldn't be devastated. I'd say good for him.
KEVIN IOLE: Right.
DANA WHITE: And if Jon Jones calls tomorrow and says, I want to fight tomorrow. I want Stipe. You know, awesome, let's make it, and let's get it going.
KEVIN IOLE: Sure, OK. Let's get into a couple of other things, Nate Diaz's return. And I thought it was interesting. And I'm glad you did it. But I just want to ask you why you did it. You already had two title fights on that card. You made the Diaz-Leon Edwards fight at UFC 263. That is June 12 in Glendale. And I believe that's your third consecutive sellout. So congrats on that.
DANA WHITE: Thank you.
KEVIN IOLE: But you made that a five rounder. Just curious, you know, it's a non-title fight that's not the main event. You know, I'm happy you did it. But why did you do it?
DANA WHITE: They wanted to fight five rounds.
KEVIN IOLE: Period. Nothing else?
DANA WHITE: It was easy. Yeah.
KEVIN IOLE: So even-- even though, you know, there's-- I'm sure you have a lot of fighters that would want to do five rounds-- that-- that, you know, this specific one, you-- you went with it.
DANA WHITE: That's what they were scheduled for on their-- on their fight before, too.
KEVIN IOLE: OK. How-- how do you see that-- you know, what do you see that fight impacting that card in terms of, like, pay-per-view sales? Because you know, Diaz obviously has proven, you know, he can move the needle, so to speak. And he's-- he's become one of your biggest stars, you know, maybe surprisingly to you. I don't know. But I mean, he seems like one of the guys that, you know, is one of your top stars.
He starred on the card. What impact does that have on the pay-per-view? Does it make the card blow up on pay-per-view wise, or do you think him being down, you know, maybe doesn't help as much as if he was in the headliner?
DANA WHITE: Yeah, I mean, if you look at the card and you think about-- every Saturday night, I compete with something, whether you've got to take your wife out to dinner. You got to-- you know, there's a new movie coming out. Whatever it is, there's always something that we compete with on Saturday.
And when you look at this card, Adesanya versus Vettori. You got--
[BEEPING]
Oh.
WOMAN: You have a call at 2:00.
DANA WHITE: Sorry.
MAN: Who's that?
DANA WHITE: Technical difficulties here. But Figueiredo versus Moreno, which, you know, was-- was in the running for fight of the year last year.
KEVIN IOLE: Yeah.
DANA WHITE: You know if Weili Zhang versus Joanna hadn't happened, they would have won. And then you add Edwards and Diaz. I mean, the card is ridiculous. It's a great card. It's stacked from top to bottom. And yeah, I-- I'm sure it should have an impact on pay-per-view.
KEVIN IOLE: Yeah, I know. I-- I love that card. I think that's going to be a fun card. What-- what's been your take so far as you're going into your third live event? You're what, you know, two weeks away essentially from your-- your third event with fans again. Do you realize how much you missed them?
I mean, is it-- has it become-- you know, we talked about, hey, it's cool to hear what the fighters say. It's cool to hear the kicks to the midsection and everything. But when you had that first fight in Jacksonville, and, you know, I got chills as I heard that crowd go crazy for that women's fight that night. It's a whole different animal with people in the building.
DANA WHITE: It's awesome. It's-- it's-- it's so fun. And yeah, Jacksonville was incredible. Houston was incredible. And I'm looking forward to Arizona. It's-- it's-- it's fun to have the fans back. It's been a-- it's been a-- you know, as I'm going in on Thursday and Friday for the weigh-ins, even the weigh-ins in Houston, you know, were awesome. So yeah, it's good to be back.
KEVIN IOLE: You know--
DANA WHITE: July 10 in Vegas is going to be nuts.
KEVIN IOLE: Yeah, I think that'll be fun. You had your matchmaking meeting after-- after UFC 262. And I'm curious, did you discuss what Oliveira's future is and where he slots in after what I thought was an incredible performance against Michael Chandler.
DANA WHITE: Yeah, well, we're obviously-- we're going to keep our eyes on the McGregor fight and figuring out what we do after that.
KEVIN IOLE: Is-- and I saw talk yesterday saying Gaethje and Michael Chandler was a possibility. Do you have any update on that one?
DANA WHITE: No, but obviously, that's a fun fight to make. I would love to make that fight, so--
KEVIN IOLE: I think that would be two fighters with Dana White privilege, right?
DANA WHITE: That's right. That is-- that's a good point. Good point.
KEVIN IOLE: Was that the line of the year so far by Tony Ferguson?
DANA WHITE: Yeah, that was pretty funny. Yeah.
KEVIN IOLE: Dana, what-- what do you do-- you know, in the past, you were more proactive, you know, talking about these guys like "Cowboy" Cerrone, Tony Ferguson, you know. I don't know that Tony really belongs in that same thing. But you know, "Cowboy" Cerrone, "Jacare," just-- you know, his contract ended. But he lost five in a row, you know. Some of these fighters, you know, notably, you-- you encouraged Chuck Liddell to retire.
You know, now, you know, you don't necessarily have that same, you know, vehemency about it, you know. I know you, at one point, said you thought it might be time for "Cowboy." And then, you know, he's-- he's still around. Like, how do you view that now? And you know, how do you-- where do you look at Tony and "Cowboy" in specific fitting into your long range plans?
DANA WHITE: Yeah, I'm not saying that it's not time for "Cowboy." But "Cowboy" asked for one more. And the one thing that you have to realize here in the UFC, too, is when-- when you see a guy, and he's-- he's lost five in a row, whether it's "Cowboy," it's Anderson Silva, it's this guy or that, look at who they've fought.
KEVIN IOLE: Right.
DANA WHITE: There all the best in the world, you know.
KEVIN IOLE: I agree.
DANA WHITE: "Jacare," I mean, these guys are fighting the absolute best in the world. So you know, to say you lose five in a row here, you're fighting all the best. My-- my thing is how are you losing--
KEVIN IOLE: Right.
DANA WHITE: --those five in a row? Did you get viciously knocked out two or three times in a row and-- and things like that that I start looking at like time to have this conversation, which is never fun. And when you're looking at a guy like "Cowboy," you know, he's been with us forever. He's stepped up, you know, in-- in-- in times of need, always willing to do anything for us.
And-- and you know, so it was like Anderson Silva, too. I mean, it's almost like-- you know, I don't want to say there's-- there's this negativity with it when we finally got to let-- you know, when we got to say, hey, it's time to pull the plug. But you know, we showed Anderson Silva the respect that he deserved, kept him here. And you know, he was making very, very big money for-- for all of these fights. And you know, "Jacare" and guys like that, we show them the respect they deserve. We keep them around and-- and let them keep competing and-- and making that money.
KEVIN IOLE: A guy that, you know, you showed respect to and even-- even in a bad time just recently was Diego Sanchez. And I want to get your take on the recent turn of events. You know, obviously, Diego got cut after, you know, the issue with Joshua Fabia, his trainer, and the whole thing about his medicals. Now, Joshua Fabia has come out and started to rip Diego-- I don't know if you saw that. But Fabia is now ripping Diego Sanchez and talking about Diego has drug problems, and he's cheap. And you know, I mean, his educational level is poor and real-- really badly.
I guess, so two questions. One, first, your thoughts on that whole scenario. And then number two, does Fabian now being out change your idea about Diego at all? And would you entertain him-- say, him versus "Cowboy" again, given that was a fight you wanted to make?
DANA WHITE: I haven't really paid attention to any of that, you know. I-- I don't care what that guy says. I mean-- I mean, this is one of those things. I just was telling the media the other day, every time you guys ask me about Triller guys, I mean, it's like, come on. You-- you want a reaction from me. That that's what you're looking for.
I-- I feel the same way about this-- this kid. All of you guys know this kid's bat [BLEEP] nuts and-- and whatever. If Diego needs me, just like the last however many years, Diego has never been that needy guy. Like-- like, you know, I-- I saw-- I did see where he came out and said, I've been trying to talk to Dana for-- Diego Sanchez can pick up the phone and call me, any of those "TUF" kids. You know what I mean?
I had a falling out a few years ago with Josh Koscheck. If Josh Koscheck picked up the phone and called me, I would talk to Josh Koscheck. If-- if-- if any of those kids needed me, all they got to do is pick up the phone and call me. Diego Sanchez, this will always be his house. He will always be a part of the history of this company. And as long as I'm here, he'll-- he'll always be respected for what he's done for the UFC and-- and-- and "The Ultimate Fighter."
I don't-- I don't really follow any of that. I don't really follow any of that [BLEEP]. I don't really care what anybody says. Like, I-- when I tell you I don't give a [BLEEP], I could not be more honest when I tell you I don't give a [BLEEP]. But I-- I love Diego Sanchez. I always will. And if Diego needs me, all he's got to do is pick up the phone.
KEVIN IOLE: You know, you know, I got-- you know how I'm a little bit sensitive when people criticize me. You-- you don't like it. But I-- you know, I mean, you don't mind it. I-- sometimes it bothers me, right? So I tweeted out or put out the other day that I was going to be talking to you and somebody says man, your interviews with Dana are boring. You've got to step it up. And I'm like, damn. So like-- so now-- so I came up with the perfect question for you. Since my interviews with--
DANA WHITE: Yeah, they're asking for Triller questions.
KEVIN IOLE: --what do you think of Ariel Helwani? No, I'm just playing. I got to figure-- I got to figure something out. But just-- just to wrap up on Diego there, given that he's no longer with that guy, will you entertain that farewell fight for him now?
DANA WHITE: I don't know. I honestly don't know. You know, even when, you know, we were doing his farewell fight, I didn't love it. I didn't love the fact that-- that-- that, you know, he-- he's-- he's still fighting and-- but no matter what I do, if I let Diego go, he'll probably end up somewhere else. You know what I mean? That's what I was thinking at the time.
And-- and I love the kid. So he wanted one more fight. I was going to give it to him. And then all hell broke loose. And-- and here we are today.
KEVIN IOLE: Just two-- two more things if I could, Dana. You know, one of the fights that was announced for July was Sean Brady versus Kevin Lee. Kevin Lee moving up to welterweight. And you know, Kevin Lee, a known commodity, you know, struggled a little bit recently but a very good fighter. But I-- I want to hear you talk about Sean Brady because, to me, you know, he is a guy I think can be that next level guy, right? I was very impressed by-- by him. I'm just curious your thoughts on him and his potential.
DANA WHITE: Yeah, no, absolute stud. And, obviously that's a huge test for him. And yeah, that-- that should be a very, very fun fight, man.
KEVIN IOLE: Yeah, no-- no doubt. That-- that will be a good one. And then-- and then, finally, I'm just kind of-- where-- where are you targeting Francis and-- and Derrick at then since you said earlier in this interview that you're-- that's the next fight? Do you have-- have a kind of a tentative game plan where you want to put that?
DANA WHITE: Yeah, listen, we just had a great experience in Houston. I'll probably take that flight back to Houston.
KEVIN IOLE: So since Derrick is from Houston, bring it back. What time-- you know, what time frame? Is that a fall fight, or would that still be in the summer?
DANA WHITE: Summer.
KEVIN IOLE: So maybe August type time frame? Awesome. All right, Dana, well, good luck. "The Ultimate Fighter" debuts June 1 on ESPN Plus. Of course, UFC content all over the place pretty much all the time now. You don't get a day off if you work for the UFC. Dana, good--
DANA WHITE: Well, now, even Tuesday. So every Tuesday on ESPN Plus.
KEVIN IOLE: Exactly Thanks, Dana. Good luck, man.
DANA WHITE: All right, buddy. Have a great day.
KEVIN IOLE: Yeah. You, too.
