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Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:20 pm EDT

Pass or Fail: Should empty-net goals count in scoring totals?

By Greg Wyshynski

Gary Loewen of Sun Media claims he doesn't think all empty-net goals "are for wimps"; just the ones that "come in the waning seconds with the outcome of the game no longer in doubt."

But Loewen's clearly got beef with empty-net goals counting towards a player's total for the season, as he explains in both sublime and ridiculous terms in the Toronto Sun:

The goal against isn't charged to the goalie, it's charged against the team. So why credit goals and assists for scoring into open nets? Simply award a team goal.

On the other hand, the NHL could use a fresh gimmick now that we've all become accustomed to the shootout. To challenge the shooter, put a cardboard cutout into the net after the real goalie vacates. Or hang a cow bell from the crossbar. Ring it off the bell and collect a goal!

Further, what is more important, [Toronto Maple Leafs forward Niklas] Hagman's freebie, which counts, or Drew Stafford's three shootout goals for the Buffalo Sabres? That's not to advocate having shootout goals become real goals.

Hell to the no. But he's clearly advocating that empty net goals shouldn't count as "real goals" either, and he's "outing" players like Evgeni Malkin of the Pittsburgh Penguins (five EN goals out of 47 last season), the Atlanta Thrashers' Ilya Kovalchuk (five EN out of 52) and Los Angeles Kings defenseman Sean O'Donnell (two EN out of two goals) for abusing the system.

We disagree. They don't count for goalies because the goalies aren't on the ice. They count for position players because, quite frankly, they're a pain in the ass to score. More games end with a mad scramble in the defensive zone than with a puck gliding into an empty net. And from a fantasy hockey perspective, there isn't a fake GM on the Internet who is rejecting an empty-netter as counterfeit. Heck, you want to start a political movement to make shootout goals worth the same as "real" goals? Consider fantasy hockey players your base.

So two questions, should you choose to answer them:

1. Pass or Fail: Empty net goals no longer counting as "real" goals?

2. Since the shootout is here to stay (ugh), should skills competition stats count towards season totals for shooters and goalies?

Related: Crosby vs. Ovechkin vs. Malkin, Incurable Fantasy Hockey Addiction

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71 Comments

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  1. gt260
    1. Posted by gt260 Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:14 pm EDT

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    fail becuase let's just stop with changing everything about the nhl and leave it all alone
  2. J-D
    2. Posted by J-D Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:31 pm EDT

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    1. Epic fail.
    2. No.
    Is Gary Loewen the Canadian version of Andy Rooney's cranky-old-man rants at the end of 60 Minutes?
  3. jibblescribbits
    3. Posted by jibblescribbits Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:34 pm EDT

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    I think Red Wings' goals shouldn't count.
  4. btumpak
    4. Posted by btumpak Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:23 pm EDT

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    1.) yes empty netters do matter (look at the one crosby missed, then allowed the rangers to score)...
    2.) should count for a completely different category, not season totals...
  5. GT
    5. Posted by GT Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:14 pm EDT

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    major fail. players who score empty netters still have to fight through 6 players hell bent on preventing a scoring chance. furthermore, i do not consider empty net goals a detriment to a player's talent. if malkin has 5 en goals, then what that tells me is that he's the player i want on the ice should i defend in a close game. as far as the shootout, the stats should be kept seperately since it is not hockey but simply an extremely stupid skill competition that is ruining the game i love.
  6. Doogie
    6. Posted by Doogie Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:30 pm EDT

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    1. Fail. There's a reason BoA calls it The Most Exciting Play in Hockey.
    2. The winners, yes; they show up on the scoresheet, they're GWG, they count as one shot, one goal, no save. I've thought this right from the word go. The rest, no.
  7. The Bog
    7. Posted by The Bog Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:11 pm EDT

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    1. Fail - it takes hard work to score an empty net goal, ask Patrik Stefan.
    2. Shootout goals shouldn't count because one team can play in 20 shootouts and another can play in 5, giving that player 15 extra breakaways he didn't earn.
    I still think the shootout is stupid and a waste of everyone's time, especially if you ever have to watch the Bruins in a shootout, yikes.
  8. Matt
    8. Posted by Matt Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:18 pm EDT

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    1) Of course
    2) SO goals should be counted as GWG. That I can go for, even if it may create the impossibility of someone having 1 "real" goal, but 2 GWG. But anything else, no.
  9. Matt
    9. Posted by Matt Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:18 pm EDT

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    I must add, they should be counted as GWG if they are the clinching goal, just like how GWG is determined in the first 65 minutes.
  10. hooksorpik
    10. Posted by hooksorpik Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:09 pm EDT

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    Al Iafrate had it right; empty net goals are for bundles of sticks. (not sure if allowed to drop the "other" f-bomb here)
  11. voiceofreason
    11. Posted by voiceofreason Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:17 pm EDT

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    These are ridiculous.
    1. Super fail. There are some "regular" goals that are easy to score (tap-ins when the goalie is down or way out of position), and some that are hard to score. There are also some empty net goals that are "easy" to score (i.e. a forward gets the puck in the neutral zone and just wrists it in) and some that are hard to score (i.e.: a forward has to get possession of it in the defensive zone and then get it all the way through bodies in the defensive, neutral zone, and offensive zone to get in a scoring position).
    2. Fail. Not a game situation. Give it its own category.
  12. Al S.
    12. Posted by Al S. Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:51 pm EDT

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    1. Fail
    2. Fail. As a matter of fact, the scoreline should just say, for example, NYR 2 PIT 2, Shootout 3-2 or whatever the score of the shootout was, just to maintain the distinctness of the two. And it should not count as goals against, goals scored, game winning goals, etc.
    BTW, I am not going to celebrate Brodeur's record of most goalie wins. I'll be glad it's off his mind, but I'm not going to celebrate it. Patty Roy did it without shootouts, so while I don't know the numbers, I am going to pretend the shootout wins were really ties, and so Marty needs another season or two before I know he'd have passed Roy anyway.
  13. T.J Oshie it!
    13. Posted by T.J Oshie it! Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:44 pm EDT

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    ENG are crucial to a victory at times, although they are sometimes easy to score, it doesn't mean that they aren't important in the scope of the game. (Ask Patrick Stefan how important ENG's are, heh) Taking away that statistic is just unnecessary. I
  14. dunno
    14. Posted by dunno Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:49 pm EDT

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    no and no, obviously.
    hockey has worked just fine the way it is (well, more or less) for like 100 years. all this "we need to change the game to make it more exciting" crap is silly.
    p.s. jarome iginla had two eng goals this week and he worked very hard on both.
  15. Wilf
    15. Posted by Wilf Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:46 pm EDT

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    tough questions. there's more skill required to score in a shootout than in most empty-netters.
    i know engs have to be counted, or nobody's ever going to touch gretzky's scoring records, but they're still so anti-climactic. mario lemieux's 600th goal was an eng, and it's non-memorable aside from the fact it was scored.
    whatever my take on using empty-netters to juice stats was before, now i'm more likely to want to see them abolished after saturday, when crosby and malkin were spending too much time in the offensive zone trying to get the eng when the puck was quickly sent up the ice and onto zherdev's stick. hilarity ensued.
  16. Jason
    16. Posted by Jason Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:14 pm EDT

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    empty net goals should definitely count. They counted towards Gretzky's totals, and probably help guarantee that nobody will ever break those records.
    Shootout goals shouldnt count as real goals. But Yahoo should allow fantasy leagues to have them as a legit ponits category.
  17. me me me
    17. Posted by me me me Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:16 pm EDT

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    yes empty net goals count.
    as for the shoot out...new stat categories created, not added to actual season stats
  18. gondlyr
    18. Posted by gondlyr Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:11 pm EDT

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    If the goalie leaves the crease, the goal definitely counts. Empty Net is the coaches decision, he loses if the other team scores into the empty net.
    Gretzky's 50th goal in 39 games was into an empty net.
  19. Dew God
    19. Posted by Dew God Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:23 pm EDT

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    they absolutely should be counted as real goals. the team with only 5 men on the ice has to go against six attackers and often is shooting from between the blue lines on the empty net. if you look at how many empty net goals are scored compared to how many shots are taken, it doesn't seem so easy.
    as for number 2, no, skills stats should not count towards a players total. if the nhl wants inflated numbers and goal totals, than they will have to put an asterisk by the stats in the record books. to me, that's the equivalent of counting the number of homeruns in a homerun derby onto the players single season total. if that were the case, evan longoria would have had almost 70 homeruns as a rookie. no, skills numbers are just that, for skills competitions, not for season stats.
  20. savagist
    20. Posted by savagist Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:53 pm EDT

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    1. FAIL. its part of the game. if you pull the goalie, live with the consequences. are they going to say the goal doesnt statistically count against the defensive team too if the losing team ties it up? that writer has lame logic and too much time to wank around with topics like this.
    2. NO. not unless they count any/every goal in the SO to the total score (still, NO).
  21. Jon A
    21. Posted by Jon A Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:11 pm EDT

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    1 Fail by a longshot. Empty net or not, the player still scored the goal and he still had to have some kind of accuracy (little though it may be) to score, so it does require at least minimal effort.
    2 That's the dumbest idea I ever heard (besides Bettman's revenue sharing). Skills contest is not part of a regular season game, and that would be moronic to count those goals toward season totals. I do however think that shootout goals should count.
  22. Jon A
    22. Posted by Jon A Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:11 pm EDT

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    In addition, shootout goals should DEFINITELY be added as a scoring category for Yahoo fantasy hockey.
  23. Pension Plan Puppets
    23. Posted by Pension Plan Puppets Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:06 pm EDT

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    1 - Fail: How dare he impugn the tactic that I use in NHL09 to pad my player's stats.
    2 - Epic Fail: Bad enough that the shootout exists...

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