Puck Daddy - NHL

Today is hits-to-the-head day at the GM meetings in Toronto, as guys like Carolina Hurricanes GM Jim Rutherford will argue that the players are too big, the game is too fast and the glass is too unyielding; and that the time has come for specific additional penalties for head shots.

No sweeping changes are expected to come from this debate; just the usual chatter from across the usual battle lines. But the Toronto Sun reports that Rutherford and another prominent team executive have a specific provision they want discussed today:

Jim Rutherford of the Hurricanes and Ken Holland of the Detroit Red Wings are intrigued by the concept of "line of vision," meaning blindside hits -- even those considered legal under today's rules -- would be no-nos.

"Is a player in a vulnerable position or is he not?" Rutherford said. "The referees and the league make those determinations. But clearly some of these are blindsided hits where a player doesn't have a chance to protect himself. ... Maybe the criteria needs to be altered."

This incremental tweaking of the rulebook, rather than a wholesale "ban" on head shots, may end up being more palatable for the League's suits.

Pierre LeBrun of ESPN has more on the GM meetings, but one item in his notebook really caught our attention: The suggestion by Nashville Predators GM David Poile that the use of "UFC-style" tactics in NHL fights needs to be discussed on a League-wide level, and will be on the agenda.

Somewhere, Riley Cote silently weeps.

From LeBrun:

One agenda item that will be brought up Wednesday, time permitting, is the issue of NHL fighters using UFC-style tactics. The Nashville Predators were upset last season when they felt San Jose Sharks winger Brad Staubitz(notes) used his forearms to punch Jordan Tootoo in a fight. Sharks GM Doug Wilson was upset the Predators complained to the league about it.

"We brought it up with the league that we thought he was hitting him with his forearm," Predators GM David Poile said Tuesday. "Doug doesn't see that, but that's what I saw on the film. I asked the league, is this something we should talk about? I haven't heard a thing about it until now."

Poile's ire stems from this fight back in March:

It sparked some interesting conversation at the time, as Lance Hornby wrote:

The Tennessean newspaper looked closely at the rule book, checked with Colin Campbell and found no specific rule that addresses or forbids Staubitz's tactics. Campbell said if a glove can be kept on in a fight, so can an elbow pad.

Preds general manager David Poile said he expects the unorthodox fighting style to be reviewed by both his peers and the league's competition committee.

"We're all aware of the latest rage, which is the (Ultimate Fighting Championship)," Poile said. "In my limited viewing of that, it's all elbows and knees. There's no question that there are players that are probably training under a UFC-type of regimen. ... What's worse: A punch or an elbow? I tend to think based on UFC and what they're doing, and the fact that it's a padded protection area, an elbow can be a whole lot worse."

Poile has a point: This should at least be discussed by the NHL, even if it was an isolated incident.

As the GM said, plenty of hockey fighters are training in MMA during the offseason, and MMA culture is prevalent in NHL locker rooms. This isn't to say a guy Staubitz is going to start using his knees or a chokehold in a fight because he watches UFC; but if there's nothing in the rulebook about it now, there won't be when it actually happens, either.

MMA fan and occasional hockey ruffian Tim Thomas(notes) of the Boston Bruins sees no place for UFC in hockey fights, via MMAFighting.com:

Last year I saw a fight, somebody was called up for San Jose [ed. note: Brad Staubitz] against Jordin Tootoo(notes), and he was purposely missing with his fist and kept hitting Jordin with his elbow pad on. So that was the closest I have seen to MMA-type striking in the NHL, and it's not good. There's a place for fighting in hockey, but to be throwing elbows, it's just wrong. And Tootoo didn't really know what was going on either, because he was dodging the fist but he was still getting hit. He couldn't figure it out.

It's always a little comical to see Marquess of Queensberry rules applied to hockey fights, where two guys beat the hell of each other in frequently-staged combat to entertain the paying customers. Fists, elbows, forearms ... there's a part of you that thinks "hey, it's a fight, anything goes" as long as lead pipes and Mr. Fuji's magic dust are kept out of the scrap.

That's the problem for the NHL: Changing the rules for something that is already against the rules.

The League loves to toe the line between "fighting is a part of our game" and "fighting is penalized in our game." To start addressing the rules of engagement in a legislative way is to offer a tacit endorsement of its place in the game. That's why any rule regarding fighting, even mandatory helmet use, gets anchored down in discussions.

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66 Comments

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  1. Matt
    1. Posted by Matt Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:57 am EST

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    Human c0ckfighting belongs nowhere, especially in my hockey rink.
    BAN MMA!
  2. Mat M
    2. Posted by Mat M Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:08 am EST

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    If there is a penalty for punching with a glove on, then apply the same for elbowing with a pad. It's probably a suspension after the fact, unless the refs actually catch it at the time (game misconduct?).
    Or just ignore it, wait for Nashville to move, and stop amending rules for wimps. You know the easiest way to not get elbowed in the face? Keep the gloves on and play hockey! You wanna fight, you better win, cause whining will get your @$$ kicked again!
  3. Art Vandelay
    3. Posted by Art Vandelay Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:09 am EST

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    Wwgrd
  4. Jerk Store
    4. Posted by Jerk Store Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:10 am EST

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    Sweep the leg!!!!
  5. Jerk Store
    5. Posted by Jerk Store Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:16 am EST

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    the rulebook calls penalties specifically for punching? thats stupid, just change the rule to give refs discretion to call penalties on any contact considered pugilistic in nature. make it vague enough to give refs flexibility.
    just like in real life, if you dont know how to fight, DONT GET INTO FIGHTS, especially if your opponent does. same rule applies to bars, frat parties, hockey rinks, etc.
  6. M
    6. Posted by M Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:23 am EST

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    Even if he Riley Cote could use MMA, UFC, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Jijtsu and whole slew of other asian words I don't know he would still not win any fights. He has to be the worst fighter I have ever seen and trust me (note the icon on the left) I am aware of the difference. And for the record, NHL fighters have done everything from Martial Arts to ballet since the beginning of time to gain an advantage for fighting. Pat Croce wasn't originally brought in to be the Flyers trainer he was a martial arts champion first and he was brought in to help Paul Holmgren with his balance and upper bound positioning to do nothing else than fight better. And now Paul Holmgren is the GM, UGH!
  7. knucklehead
    7. Posted by knucklehead Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:23 am EST

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    How do you determine a blindside hit when these guys are skating at mach 12?
    Bring back the 2-line-pass rule, remove the trapezoid, slow the game down a notch, and watch the injuries back away.
    As for fighting, if two guys want to square off, fine, but why is it when a decent check is delivered you've got to answer for it?
    You obvilously cannot mandate the entire game on judgement calls by officials. The only way to reduce injuries is to either slow the game down or make hits to the head a reviewable play that either coaches can challenge.
  8. LiquorPugs
    8. Posted by LiquorPugs Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:28 am EST

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    See Souray vs Weller - Souray blasts Weller with forearm hits ... and a wrist protector. That's gotta hurt.
  9. Max_Powers
    9. Posted by Max_Powers Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:29 am EST

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    If you're pretty much allowed to pull hair and bite, then what's wrong with a few elbows? How about the NHL try to enforce some of the rules it already has before making new ones to confuse the refs, players and fans even more?
  10. Helm s Deep
    10. Posted by Helm's Deep Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:33 am EST

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    TAP OUT mutha ehferz....TAP OUT!..
    I think hockey fights are worse than MMA. At least the guys who fight in their boxer-briefs seem to have a mutual respect for one another. They Hug after a fight, and the ref can govern them.
    In hockey....its way more cut-throat...and wrought with hatred.
    Who's the toughest guy in the league now? Jansen?
  11. joe h
    11. Posted by joe h Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:34 am EST

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    It's Tootoo, I'm sure he deserved it. Until you see elbows being thrown on non-dirty players, who cares.
    The line of vision thing is stupid. So many players think that they're off scott free by dumping the puck with someone barrelling at them. That's gonna be a penalty if the player isn't coming head on?
  12. Mazarin
    12. Posted by Mazarin Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:38 am EST

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    What about the textbook takedown by Ben Eager in the VAN/CHI brawl near the end of last season? I think it's silly that you have to tell these guys it's NOT MMA(or a catfight, Alex), but if it needs to be enforced, enforce it.
  13. habs1rule
    13. Posted by habs1rule Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:40 am EST

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    'respect yourselves
  14. Kerry
    14. Posted by Kerry Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:47 am EST

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    "MMA culture is prevalent in NHL locker rooms"
    Now there's a depressing sentence
  15. beuke2394
    15. Posted by beuke2394 Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:58 am EST

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    I'd be more sympathetic to the cause if the guy getting pasted wasn't Jordan Tootoo.
  16. Nanerpus
    16. Posted by Nanerpus Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:16 am EST

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    Tootoo is a prick and that was the most entertaining fight of the year (so far). As long as nobody gets their eyes gouged out I say fight it out boys, fight it out. Welcome back to San Jose, Tootoo. Now pick your teeth up off the ice and suck it up. If you dish it, you must be able to take it! Shazam!
  17. Tacks
    17. Posted by Tacks Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:20 am EST

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    If they implement line of vision on hits, Ovechkin will never be able to throw a check again.
  18. M
    18. Posted by M Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:34 am EST

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    I like line of vision rules. This can be applied to a number of situations, such as the ridiculous chase to icing. The the idea that you should be looking a guy in the face when you approach to hit him really goes along with the concept of being a man about it in the first place. This is not going to eliminate checking but instead of lining up a blindside a player will look first to making a defensive move to steal a puck to create offense. A lot of these blindside hits could have easily become taking the puck from an unaware player to create an odd man rushes instead.
  19. Jay
    19. Posted by Jay Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:51 am EST

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    What ends up happening here is, the players take it too far, and fighting gets banned. It's up to the players to not push this too far.
  20. PJ
    20. Posted by PJ Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:51 am EST

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    One, I think he means MMA instead of UFC. And 2, it could also be muaythai training where you learn to throw elbows and knees in a clinch. This is something that has crossed over more than just in hockey. At a professional boxing event I saw one competitor halfway throw a knee in close, before the thought against it and stopped.
    A lot of gyms offer mutiple disciplines, boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, BJJ. Even if you are not a competitor, a lot of people use it to get in shape. The NHL should not make a big drama filled issue about it, but they should nail down exactly what is and what isn't legal before another controversy erupts and they are forced to make a change.
  21. Jay
    21. Posted by Jay Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:55 am EST

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    The line of vision idea is also a slippery slope. What about a player that gets lined up on a long breakaway pass attempt, and gets smeared as he puts his head down to collect the puck. That's a risk/reward play for both players, and should be allowed, but could be interpreted as a line of sight violation (unless he pulls a Naruto style hit from under the ice somehow) And opens up also to more Claude Lemiux style turtling to draw penalties. I don't like bad hits, so it's worth exploring. Might be easier to tell players, you make a bad hit on a player, if it gets reviewed, you're done for the season, not exceptions, major injury or not. Rather than on ice judgment.
  22. Kevin
    22. Posted by Kevin Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:15 pm EST

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    once again the red wings come up with the best idea in the league, just give the commish job to kenny holland and let him fix this league
  23. chad c
    23. Posted by chad c Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:19 pm EST

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    God don't even think about bringing back the 2 line pass rule. What a stupid rule. There is too much knee jerk reactions going on. This is hockey people are going to get hurt and most of them are not because of speed. Orpik just went funny into the boards last night. Gonchar is always hurt, the way Ovechkin hits he should be hurt more often so he was due, Rob Blake innocently put his had on the boards and tweeked his shoulder. All the concussions from hits aren't any different than what Scott Stevens used to do before the lock out. I wonder how many of the players with concussions were wearing their mouth piece. The Game is fine, make a better helmet and wear the mouthpiece. I don't want to see huge defenseman water skiing on forwards away from the puck or with the puck for that matter. If that happens all offensive creativity is gone because people think the game is too fast. Defensive hockey sucks might as well watch boring soccer.
  24. Benny
    24. Posted by Benny Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:21 pm EST

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    Why hasn't someone taught Macho Man Randy Savage how to skate yet? Nothing would pump up the home crowd like an elbow drop from the top of the net. And since it's not banned in the rule book, it's legal! Oh yeah!
  25. M
    25. Posted by M Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:31 pm EST

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    Yo chad c keep it down buddy you keep talking like that and hot stacey is going to come over insulting the games entire history and its legends and then it is gonna get crazy. And speaking of Orpik why is there still a dasher on the boards. That stupid 4" shelf has caused more damage to players over the years than any open ice hits. Why is it even necessary to have it protrude out like that, make the glass flush with the boards.

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