Ball Don't Lie - NBA

Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:00 am EDT

The Pistons turn a big one down


There's too much smoke surrounding the proposed and summarily shot-down Pistons and Celtics deal for the proposal not to be true.

First off, Adrian Wojnarowski is a trusted source, a connected sort who knows his stuff.

Secondly, the deal in question (Boston's Ray Allen(notes) and Rajon Rondo(notes) for Detroit's Rodney Stuckey(notes), Tayshaun Prince(notes), and Rip Hamilton) involves too many players who, if they haven't already been mentioned in a series of trade rumors before, should be on the block.

The deal isn't going down, it should be noted. Woj even pointed out that C's and Pistons bosses Danny Ainge and Joe Dumars didn't even take to the phones to discuss it. A Celtics underling called to propose it, with Ainge's blessing, and a Pistons colleague turned it down, with Dumars' blessing.

And, bless Joe Dumars, but what the hell is he thinking?

For 2009-10, yes, this could be a big deal for the Celtics. Hamilton could have a bounce-back year, same with Tayshaun Prince, and Rodney Stuckey should improve. Based on sheer depth, alone, Detroit could have handed the hated C's another Eastern Conference championship. Not unlike the way the Celtics possibly handed Detroit the same thing five years ago.

Beyond that? They would have handed Boston an above-average offensive shooting guard with a three-year, $34 million dollar contract. A 29-year old defensive stalwart, already on the decline, who is owed about $21.5 million over the next two years. And Rodney Stuckey, a nice player, possibly a point guard (his assist ratio rivaled that of Shane Battier(notes) and Derek Fisher's(notes) in 2008-09), and definitely a guy looking for a contract extension after next year.

What would Detroit have gotten? Sweet, sweet relief.

Relief (in the form of Ray Allen's expiring contract) from an awful extension Dumars handed to Hamilton last fall. Relief from the second half of a massive two years owed to Prince, a fine player who is probably worth half of what he's owed. And a huge upgrade from Stuckey to Rondo, even if Rondo is looking for a contract extension this summer, as opposed to next.

Best? Assuming the Pistons submit to a rebuilding process, no easy decision, this would ensure that Detroit had, possibly, around $37 million in cap space for the summer of 2010 before Rondo's extension takes hold. That's including a pair of first round contracts to take to both this summer and next, and with a conservative estimate regarding the NBA's payroll structure for semi-famous offseason.

This is a direction you have to head toward. You're rebuilding. Deal with it. Deal, aware of it.

I'm sorry, but you can only blame Allen Iverson(notes) and Rasheed Wallace(notes) for so much. The Pistons, clearly, aren't doing anything with Hamilton (aged 31) and Prince right now, and as good as Stuckey can be, his career arc doesn't exactly scream "All-Star!" to these eyes.

Let's say the Pistons kept the triptych, and watched as the best-case scenario took hold. Ben Gordon(notes), possibly, and Carlos Boozer(notes). Add a solid draft pick taken just outside the lottery, and where does this leave you? A championship? With Prince fading and Hamilton having already started his decline? With Boozer and Gordon tossing up jumpers and Stuckey still fitfully trying to balance his scoring and distribution instincts?

Does that really sound like a championship core? No? Well, that's your team, Pistons fans, if Dumars decides to spend his money in 2009. That's a team that could still be under the salary cap, somewhat, in the summer of 2010. But it would be under the cap with 11 players on the roster, including first round selections in 2009 and 2010, and several slots to fill in order to boast a sound rotation (unless you were banking on Walter Sharpe(notes) turning things around).

There are various permutations that could result in Chris Bosh(notes) becoming a Piston if Detroit only signs one big free agent this summer, and has a piece in place (Stuckey) for a sign and trade, but where does this leave you? Bosh and Gordon and Hamilton and Prince? Yay?

Turning a team around and shooting for the fences depends on a lot of guts, and a whole lot of luck. And while Dumars knew exactly what he was doing, he had a lot of luck on his side when he helped put together a sign-and-trade for Grant Hill(notes) in the summer of 2000, or (finally ensconced as a full-fledged GM) took to a depth-based rebuilding plan during the summer of 2001.

It paid off in 2004, as the Pistons won a championship, but how many things had to go right? Ainge helped, needlessly taking on extra salary in February of 2004 to allow a trade that sent Rasheed Wallace from the Atlanta Hawks to the Pistons to go through. The Pistons then had to work through an injury-riddled Pacers and Lakers team (who downed an injury-riddled Timberwolves team, and a shell-shocked, and arguably better, San Antonio Spurs team) to win the championship.

This also involved taking advantage of a clueless Michael Jordan (then a Wizards GM, looking to make a big splash for 2002-03, and damn the rest) by acquiring Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse(notes). This involved Tayshaun Prince being available late in 2002's first round. This was based on both the Washington Wizards and Orlando Magic undervaluing Ben Wallace(notes). This championship was won when the Pistons struck gold with Chauncey Billups(notes), after five other teams gave up on him.

Make no mistake, Detroit earned that championship. But timing and luck played a huge, huge role. And until you can back into such luck, with that sort of timing, you have to create your own destiny.

And basing your destiny around Hamilton and Prince's declining fortunes, while thinking Stuckey some sort of answer, doesn't really seem like the best plan.

Yes, Dumars is savvy, and has options galore (it doesn't have to signing players outright, he can also trade for a pair of studs) this summer, but grabbing Rondo and Ray Allen's expiring contract for this lot seems like a chance well worth taking.

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102 Comments

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  1. Derrk
    1. Posted by Derrk Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:10 am EDT

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    Good proposed trade...
  2. theoldgoalie
    2. Posted by theoldgoalie Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:25 am EDT

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    What a complete crock! First off, it sounds like Dwyer thinks that Dumars owed a good deal to Ainge (which he doesn't), second he makes it sound as though the title runs that the pistons recently made were pure luck and that is just plain B.S. Dumars knows the game of basketball and is by far one of the best GM's in the game. He has made one mistake so far in his tenure here in Detroit and that is the deal that sent Billups to Denver for Iverson, but who would have thought Iverson would be so terrible. I don't think too many people saw that coming.Either way, it cleared some salary cap room and left him in a good place. Dumars knows the type of players he wants for his team and he does not like the Isaiah Thomas type players which is exactly who Allen is. He is a player that thinks he is better than he really is, and he has proven time and time again that he is in it for himself and not a team player (just look what he did to Minnesota when they gave Garnett that big contract). Dumars knows what he is doing and he will put a very competitive team in the court there is no doubt about it. Turning down this deal was a no brainer for Dumars and anyone who thinks differently has an alternative motive.
  3. DrEw JacKs0N
    3. Posted by DrEw JacKs0N Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:34 am EDT

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    #3
  4. The Wiz
    4. Posted by The Wiz Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:35 am EDT

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    First off the Iverson trade was Terrible with regards to team unity and play...but financially it was a smart move. Basically this trade would just be financially beneficial for 2010. I wouldn't see this trade improving the Pistons to win anything.
  5. Hambone
    5. Posted by Hambone Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:37 am EDT

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    One big mistake, goalie? Was the drafting of Darko over 25% of last year's Olympic gold medal squad not a big mistake?
    On second thought, I agree. "Big" just isn't a strong enough word.
    Also, Ray Allen is an "Isiah Thomas-type"? Doesn't make sacrafices for his team? Have you been paying ANY attention ot the Celtics the last two years? Of the three stars on that team, Ray Allen sacraficed the most. I think you're confusing him with Stephon Marbury.
  6. Kenny T
    6. Posted by Kenny T Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:39 am EDT

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    it is a good one, but at the same time it stands to reason that Joe D's stance is to remain competitive while retooling, not rebuilding. luck and chance have had a hand in it, but it's undeniable that the success the pistons have had the last decade have also done something to do with consistency.
    trading 3 starters (including a developing young combo guard with potential for growth) for a young (good) PG with "maturity issues" and a rapidly declining ray allen would have submarined that consistency in the lineup, mess with chemistry and essentially place detroit on the same path of so many rebuilding teams: They stink and will continue to do so, with only a belief that the extra cap scape and draft picks will be their salvation. teams like that live on potential, but teams that are consistently successful like san antonio (and hopefully detroit in the next years) live on winning.
  7. jbabyflaw
    7. Posted by jbabyflaw Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:39 am EDT

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    Why dont they put Paul on the Block and go after a young stud that drive to the basket and dunk every once in awhile..I love Paul pierce but doesn't he look like he sat around enjoying the hell out of his championship eating burgers all summer..He looked slow,he was off and on even more than Ray,who I dont mind them trading at all and didnt show that he was the best player in that last playoff series..Hello Paul Is One and done people!Paul and Ray on the block..Keep Rondo.Hire some help so that he can make a jumper or two..Get a slasher who can create because without Rondo they didnt have one..
  8. KD
    8. Posted by KD Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:47 am EDT

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    Beware the Pistons fans who can't spell Isiah Thomas' first name, and can't remember who drafted Darko Milicic.
    And Rodney White.
    And had a hand in the Mateen Cleaves draft.
  9. Hambone
    9. Posted by Hambone Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:48 am EDT

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    jbabyflaw - Pierce has always looked like that. He look slow in the playoffs because he's spent the last month of the season with the team on his back, and he's too old to do all that he was doing. Not that I don't agree with keeping Rondo, but I'd like Pierce to retire in green.
    Honestly, I don't like this trade for either team. Prince gives Boston a good 6th man, but Stuckey isn't the right point guard for that team. Just like how Rondo isn't the right point guard for that Pistons team (they need a better shooter, and someone more patient). They also need to get younger at the 2. In the end, I think everyone is better off that this didn't happen.
  10. hans k
    10. Posted by hans k Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:52 am EDT

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    Don't get this deal. Dumping salaries doesn't make sense to fans. I don't like that. But is it common..
  11. bill russell
    11. Posted by bill russell Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:03 am EDT

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    this is insulting to Dumars intelligence. that's probably why Ainge sent a lower level exec to deliver the offer. also, sounds like celts are getting desperate. it's a shame that the KG gift will only bring them one championship and now their future AJ is in Minny.
  12. slenon
    12. Posted by slenon Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:13 am EDT

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    How the hell does Dumars turn this deal down?! Mark Jackson: "Are you kidding me?" (sorry that just popped into my head.) Obviously by trading Billups he clearly gave up on that core's (Sheed, Billups, Prince, Hamilton) chances. So you might as well start from scratch. Hamilton is good, but at 31 his contract is killing, and Prince is 29 with a not so attractive deal either. Don't know too many teams where you'll be able to dump their salaries in the next couple years. You get Allen's expiring deal, more cap relief, you could've turned it around pretty quickly just with his contract, and getting rondo seems like a no brainer. Clearly Rondo still needs some work with his shooting, but damn, Stuckey doesn't seem anywhere near his level yet or anytime soon, (still don't see that D-Wade comparison either.)
    Maybe Dumars thinks its too little return, or maybe he has some other deal in the works, especially if it was rejected so quickly. Who knows, if this deal was real and I was Dumars, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
  13. SCSF- LA where repeats and 3-peats happen!
    13. Posted by SCSF- LA where repeats and 3-peats happen! Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:14 am EDT

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    Chowders the Lakers will give up Farmar, Sasha, & Benga for those two.....
  14. denmark240
    14. Posted by denmark240 Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:16 am EDT

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    This is not a no brainer like KD is trying to convince people. Rondo is good but hes a headache off the court. Theres a reason theyre trying to get rid of him, no one likes him. And Tayshaun Prince isnt on the decline, he is what he is, a solid defender who contributes on the offensive end. The bottom line is Dumars knows he can get a better deal than this. The Pistons are already getting relief with SHeed and Iverson's contracts gone. The have money to get a couple good players and keep Tayshaun and Rip. Also I have a feeling he doesnt want to see these beloved pistons in celtics uniforms for the next years to come, and he knows pistons fans dont either. Im surprised KD didnt blame Dumars for Iverson having a bad season too, considering he rarely misses a chance to stroke Iverson' s shlong, i mean ego.
  15. Boomhauer
    15. Posted by Boomhauer Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:25 am EDT

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    Dumars will never trade his love child Stuckey.
  16. Widjayaman
    16. Posted by Widjayaman Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:30 am EDT

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    Haha theoldgoalie is so pwned.. If you confuse Ray Allen with Stephon marbury you pretty much lose all credibility in your post.
    Intriguing proposal... and I kinda hope Dumars would give this a second thought.
  17. Mark P
    17. Posted by Mark P Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:39 am EDT

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    Hilarious.
    Detroit isn't doing anything with Hamilton and Prince, despite them having an entire offseason to come up with a better trade than this garbage.
    Than to say Joe was a fool to give Rip the extension that he did, and Prince the contract that he did, but yet he would be trading for a "top point-guard" who is commanding at least a 10 million dollar contract.
    Boston is retarded.
  18. ArrogantBastard
    18. Posted by ArrogantBastard Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:24 am EDT

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    Good call JoeD:
    You CAN'T make that trade....ever! Piston newbies will need guys like Tayshaun and Rip to keep the team's collective dome through the season. Tayshaun had a slow season last year, but played all summer in the Olympics. I think Rip was the team's leading scorer last season. As for Stuckey, I'll take Stuckey over Rondo any day! Stuckey has played lights out since he got to Detroit. Ray Allen is just too old to be effective very much longer. Bad offer for Detroit.
  19. Vadim
    19. Posted by Vadim Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:34 am EDT

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    If i was detroit i wouldnt do thgis trade. First of all ray allen is getting up there in years. Secopnd of all they have stuckey and he is young and he will be a good ball player. I would try to only get allen and not trade stuckey.
  20. Vadim
    20. Posted by Vadim Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:35 am EDT

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    i mean only get rondo
  21. Kiara
    21. Posted by Kiara Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:13 pm EDT

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    I am glad that they Detroit did not take Rondo and Allen. How could Ainge try and break up the big three and give "Rondo",the best point guard the C's have, away. That's is some BS. Get rid of KG he did nothing the whole playoffs or regular season.
  22. moe
    22. Posted by moe Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:17 pm EDT

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    gettiing rondo is a good call the rest is trash..the pistons obviously want to overhaul the whole team.. after the draft night there will be a lot changes on what they are planning.. i guess joe dumars can't sleep because he has a lot of things to think about..
  23. conradrosenbaum
    23. Posted by conradrosenbaum Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:17 pm EDT

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    This trade is worse (from the Celtics perspective) than the Antoine Walker for Raef Lafrentz deal. At least in that deal, Walker was a marginally talented player, as opposed to Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo, who would be the best two players (by a long shot).
    The only reason why the Celtics would be so willing to make the deal is to cut future salary commitments.
    Fortunately, Joe Dumars is an idiot, so Ainge is let off the hook here.
  24. James Deaner
    24. Posted by James Deaner Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:18 pm EDT

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    So What? We get a third tier PG who only looks good because he passes the ball to Pierce, KG, and Allen? And we get a selfish prick who will, like Iverson, Doom us for another year by his un-Piston-like demeanor.
    Additionally, Prince is far from decline as you so coldly mention. He had his best statistical year last year, all while playing point forward, small forward, shooting guard, and power forward. That's the guy who's on the way out? The only two pieces of this team I wouldn't touch would be Prince and Stuckey.
    I understand, they get cap space for 2010 if they trade for Allen, but... Lebron will stay in Cle, he would never go to det. Wade will either go to Chicago or stay where he's at. Bosh will be traded before the Feb deadline unless the Raps give him something better than Marion. Then what? Our best bets in that class will be somebody like Joe Johnson, Michael Redd, or Amare who seems to have troubles with Phoenix. All this money, and the top three players won't touch Detroit with a ten foot pole.
    Doesn't it make more sense to sure up your team now? Teams are costs cutting, trading players that have no reason to be traded, all so they can be part of a circus that will revolve around 4 or 5 teams. 2009 offseason is the year of the bargain shopping and that's what Joe's going to be doing some work come July 1st, so get your panties out of wad.
  25. bill russell
    25. Posted by bill russell Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:29 pm EDT

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    so whatever happened to the Kevin G promise of back to back championships. he looked like he could play from all of his jumping up and down taunting everytime an opponent missed a foul shot. fact is that celts are on fast decline and the current team with three hall of famers will have only won one championship. they won't make it out of the east for the visible future given the improved team play of magic, cavs.

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