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Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:15 am EST

UFC 106 postfight: White says call Kizer to fix scoring issues

By Steve Cofield

The momentum builds with each close fight. Many fans and media members are looking for answers on how to fix what they think is a problem, inconsistent judging in mixed martial arts. That's if there is a problem. Forrest Griffin and Tito Ortiz engaged in a back and forth fight for two rounds before Griffin rolled in the third at UFC 106. The decision (30-27, 29-28 and 28-29) went to Griffin. Frankly it wouldn't have been outrageous had it gone to Ortiz. When fighters don't try to finish fights these things happens. Boxing has a long history of close fights and close decisions don't always mean they're controversial, yet for UFC president Dana White the complaining hurled his way is getting old (2:15 mark):

"I don't even know, I'm so exhausted by this whole thing," White said during the postfight press conference. "It's tiring. It's terrible. These athletic commissions need to start looking at this and figure out what they're going to do."

White said fans should contact the head of the nation's leading commission, Keith Kizer, the executive director of the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

"It has nothing to do with me. You should see the emails I get, 'you scumbag, you're just like Don King.' That's what people think. People think that we pick who's going to win or lose and tell the commission to do it."

Ron Kruck from HDNet, one of the loudest critics of MMA scoring, complained again on Sunday with a tweet:


Reacting to the Lyoto Machida decision win over Mauricio Rua at UFC 104, Kruck exploded on Twitter saying White needed to fix things. Maybe he meant Kizer. Kizer told Cagewriter on Thursday that there are no issues (4:05 mark):

"These fights are very well-matched. It's incredible. Plus you only have three or five rounds at most so there's not a lot of room for variance. So you have one close round, that could make a big difference."

Kizer said there's always going to be issues where the outcome of a sport is subjective. He's pleased with ongoing effort by the judges to improve their knowledge and said competitive, close fights are a good thing for the sport.

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26 Comments

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  1. David B
    1. Posted by David B Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:54 am EST

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    Nevada seems like they are using washed up and out of work boxing judges who know nothing about MMA- Ortiz Griffin could have gone either way , I think Tito ran out of gas but still handled him the first two rounds- Draw at the least - What type of training do they go thru ??
  2. Clifford J
    2. Posted by Clifford J Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:04 am EST

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    David B raises a good question - are these judges trianed? Do they do anything to try and standardize results? It's disturbing when you hear Cecil Peoples say things like leg kicks don't win fights, and Machida's retreating from Shogun constituted octagon control because he was "dictating" where the "fight" would take place. Kizer is full of crap here - sure there will always be disagreement in subjective judgments, but all the judges should be starting from the same place.
  3. Sandman
    3. Posted by Sandman Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:30 am EST

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    Why is BJ Penn and "Force Factor taking up space all over my screen? As if the yahoo site was not ugly enough!
  4. ABabs
    4. Posted by ABabs Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:42 am EST

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    I always cringe when I hear reports that one judge favors takedowns, while another puts more emphasis on striking. It clearly shouldn't be like that. All judges should be scoring different techniques equally.
    Also, something that I would LOVE to see happen is the athletic commissions make public the judges' scorecards. Whatever that piece of paper is in front of them that they use to tabulate who wins a round and how, I would like to see it. I feel like if fans were let in on the process of judging, and educated in that area (since the current explanation from the commissions is that fans don't watch fights closely because they're too busy high-fiving), maybe the controversy would subside.
  5. rwl060
    5. Posted by rwl060 Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:54 am EST

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    I think Griffin won this fight ... It was certainly no where near as obvious a blown call as some other recent fights were (that shall go unnamed). That being said, we need judges to use consistent scoring criteria.
  6. Robert C
    6. Posted by Robert C Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:40 am EST

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    It seems to me that judges feel that they HAVE to award a winner of each round. They do not. They could give more 10-10 or even 9-9 rounds, etc.
    The attutude to clearly call a winner of each round is what needs to change. If a round was just too close to call a winner, then don't.
    I have not seen this fight yet, so I don't have an opinion on it. Sounds like it was not as bad as Rua or Hamill....and because it is Tito, I don't really care. But, in order to prevent a repeat of the Rua decision, emphasize to the judges that it is OK to give a 10-10 score.
    If a fight ends in a draw, so be it. It probably was a draw, and neither side can really argue much...even though they will anyway.
  7. Clifford J
    7. Posted by Clifford J Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:47 am EST

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    Robert C
    -First round - close - Forrest won stand up but Ortiz got a takedown and landed a few punches.
    -Second Round - Ortiz won - Ortiz took Forrest down and beat him up pretty good. Forrest did a nice escape to get out of it though.
    -Third round - Forrest won - Forrest dominated the last round, throwing at least five times as many punches and stuffing a takedown attempt.
    Bottom line - close fight, much, much less terrible than the decision that will remain nameless, and also less bad (in my opinion) than the mysterious Couture victory last week.
    I realy agree with ABabs - you shouldn't have judges all forming their own opinion on these issues. It should be more standardized. For example, I don't know if you guys have seen the fight, but what about round two in Clay Guida v. Diego Sanchez? In that fight, Guida got the takedown but did little damage from the top while Sanchez attempted a submission and elbowed viciously from the bottom. Who wins? There should be some criteria on how to score that, it shouldn't be a bunch of douchebags just thinking vaguely about what "octagon control" is.
    A big problem in MMA is how to score lay and pray - i.e. takedowns or pressing up against the fence where not a lot of damage is being done. Another is how to score escapes - if someone gets out of full mount and back into guard, that's really hard. But do you get points for it?
    There aren't necessarily answers to all of these questions - but some sort of standardized answer would be nice.
  8. ryan w
    8. Posted by ryan w Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:39 pm EST

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    Finish the fight.
  9. Kyle
    9. Posted by Kyle Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:58 pm EST

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    Robert C, that is wrong. It's a 10 point must system for the winner with the loser of the round getting a 9 or less. No draws in rounds, which is something that needs to be changed.
  10. ABabs
    10. Posted by ABabs Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:59 pm EST

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    This link, "http://www.fiveknuckles.com/mma-news/Official-scorecards-for-UFC-104s-Lyoto-Machida-vs-Mauricio-Rua.html" shows the physical scorecards used by the judges in the Machida-Rua fight. I had no idea these things were so elementary!
    There should be instant data provided to each judge between rounds on strikes, takedowns, sub attempts, and defense. These can even be plugged into a predetermined formula that weights each appropriately and spits out some meaningful data. I don't see any reason why the judging process shouldn't become far more objective and scientific.
  11. Robert C
    11. Posted by Robert C Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:11 pm EST

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    @Kyle - maybe I am wrong. Thought I read somewhere that judges are allowed to score a round as a draw. My bad. Yes, it does need to be changed.
  12. Clifford J
    12. Posted by Clifford J Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:46 pm EST

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    My understanding is judges can score a round as a draw, they just very rarely do so.
  13. Kyle
    13. Posted by Kyle Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:20 pm EST

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    Robert C, I might've been wrong. Doing some more research, it looks like a round can be scored 10-10. UFC just always states the winner of a round must receive a 10 and the other fighter a 9 or less. But that's not their rules, but state athletic commissions, which if true, makes it even more frustrating when rounds aren't scored a draw.
  14. jayyolf1
    14. Posted by jayyolf1 Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:11 pm EST

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    Dana needs to STFU and say IMO instead of bashing HIS OWN FREAKIN' PRODUCT!!! What a dingleberry........in fact, that is your new name Dana, Dingleberry Dana........freakin' clownface. If you keep bashing the judging of your own fkkkking fights then people are not gonna tune in anymore b/c they will think its a sham, you retard.
    IMO both the Tito vs Griffin II and Machida vs Shogun were the correct decision. See how easy that is Dana
  15. Joe
    15. Posted by Joe Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm EST

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    I thought the Rua v. Machida scoring was bad as Rua clearly won the fight.
    But Forrest won the fight with Tito fair and square. Forrest should have had a 10-8 round in the 3rd and won the 2nd or 1st, for a 29-27 win.
  16. smoovevibe
    16. Posted by smoovevibe Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:48 pm EST

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    I've had a lot of the same frustrations as many of you.. but I asked a friend of mine who has inside MMA knowledge along w/ reading blogs and comments on various sites and basically what I've learned is that MMA judges are trained to look at and score Octagon control very heavily.. which is why Randy won the Vera fight... I think that most people who like to watch fights look for cleaner harder strikes and more damage.. however being agressive (which always was a thing for Nevada judges going back to the Oscar v. Tito fight) and octagon control are the most heavily weighted. Also, sub attempts get scored heavily.. but they don't score escapes (this is something that once I learned cleared up a lot.. for those of you who know in wrestling escapes get points).. they only score reversals.. you see to me if I guy gets points for a sub attempt the other guy should get points for escaping it but it doesn't work like that... (which makes the Page v. Griffin fight make more sense to me)...
    We know the UFC wants exciting fights.. I think that's why they weight agression so heavily.. they want guys pushing the action... but as fighters get better and guys realize they can lose and not climb back up easily as there are more and more guys w/ talent we will start to see more and more fighters fighting smart, fighting not to lose and to score points.. all the things we hate about boxing and why we like MMA LOL.. but it's bound to happen... hey bottom line DW and Coker and them are protecting their bottom lines and so are the fighters and they will more and more. Lay and pray will be the norm.
  17. TysonM
    17. Posted by TysonM Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:15 pm EST

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    jayyolf1- The judging has nothing to do with Dana. The judging is handled by the respective athletic commission. The reason he is bashing these groups is because they are ruining the sport he represents. He has no say in how his fights are judged, and people are getting VERY frustrated at the terrible calls. A change has to come, and if he keeps pushing, he may have enough influence in the community to initiate a change.
  18. gohubb
    18. Posted by gohubb Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:14 pm EST

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    How about the judges wait to score a fight until they review
    Each round on tape. Not sure how its done but that sounds to
    me. Things always seem more in tune when watching slow motion.
  19. gohubb
    19. Posted by gohubb Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:16 pm EST

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    Good to me. Wth
  20. lm
    20. Posted by lm Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:15 pm EST

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    Years ago, I have not only fought but have refereed a time or two and have judged and its a tough gig, I promise you that
    I didnt think the FG/ TO fight was close, with FG being the correct winner
    They should have the judges in their own room watching it on 5 different tvs maybe the sound off but then they could look at it like we see it
    maybe the time has come for that
  21. SCpanther89
    21. Posted by SCpanther89 Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:49 am EST

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    The scoring system they use in Japan is much better for MMA. They don't judge by rounds, but instead go by the fight in it's entirety. Under this system, the guy who does more damage and comes closer to finishing the fight, wins. I like it because it discourages guys from just trying to neutralize the opponent. For example, a wrestler could lay on a guy for the first two rounds and do nothing but if the other guy did a ton of damage in the 3rd round, the wrestler would end up losing. Whereas, that same wrestler would possibly win under the 10-point must system, because he'd have the first two rounds.
  22. BNG
    22. Posted by BNG Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:51 pm EST

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    One thing fans need to stop doing is looking at the fighter who "looks" beat up and say the other guy is the winner. So many people come here and complain, "Look at Griffin's face! Lookk at Machida's face!" This is a sport with rules. Just because one guy is a bleeder or a bruiser doesn't mean he lost. That is where the aggression, octagon control and grappling aspects come in. Effective striking is not solely lookingat blows that result in welts or cuts or contusions. Effective strikes land in scoring areas with a discernable impact. I tend to disagree with the scoreable strike zones as elbowing your opponent's thighs while in their guard is an effective way to loosen it to allow you to advance your position, put those aren't scored as "effective."
    I agree that stopping or escaping from takedowns and submission attempts should be scored as well as the takedown itself. It takes a lot of skill to defend the neck when an opponent has your back. It takes skill to escape an armbar. It takes skill to get off the fence. That work should earn the fighter something. Should it win him the fight? Only if the decision rests on those factors.
  23. Robert C
    23. Posted by Robert C Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:40 am EST

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    Joe, round 2 for Forrest??? This is the problem with the judges, they dont know anything about MMA, kinda like Joe. I have been a huge Tito fan since his first fightin the UFC and I had it a draw with Tito winning 1 and 2 and Foreest winning a 10-8 round in the third. BNG i disagree with a fighters getting points for regaining gaurd or getting of the fence. You should never be scored points for defence.
  24. Pinhead
    24. Posted by Pinhead Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:53 pm EST

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    they need to be scored as a whole fight not round by round. and they need to try and finish the fight and not stalling by holding each other on the cage or floor. it needs to change i hope soon..
  25. Brad F
    25. Posted by Brad F Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:40 pm EST

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    Instead of a 10 point must system, what about a 10 point max system? When I watched the Griffin Ortiz 2 I was worried that Ortiz might steal it by having take downs in the first two rounds. That would have been unfortunate since I felt Griffin was the clear winner. Thankfully the judges got it right. Still the question remains, should a take down be enough to steal a round? What if it was only worth a point? Ground and pound could be worth another. Winning a big exchange worth another and so on. Rounds where there is little action might be scored as low as
    5-4, and exciting roundscould be scored 8-7. Only rounds with knock downs or complete dominance should be awarded 10 points. I know this system isn't perfect but its a start.

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