Did Manuel’s early hook for Pedro spur Dodgers?

By GREG BEACHAM, AP Sports Writer Oct 16, 8:54 pm EDT

  • Print

LOS ANGELES (AP)—Grady Little infamously stuck with Pedro Martinez(notes) a bit too long.

Six years later, did Charlie Manuel yank Martinez a bit too soon in a crucial playoff moment?

Another manager’s late-inning postseason decision on Martinez is sure to be a hot topic of discussion after the Los Angeles Dodgers’ 2-1 comeback victory over the Philadelphia Phillies in Game 2 of the NL championship series on Friday.

“I didn’t ask for anything like (staying in),” Martinez said. “If they asked me to go back, yes, I would have, but they didn’t, and that’s it.”

In his first postseason start since 2004, Martinez stifled the Dodgers for seven scoreless innings, allowing two hits and overwhelming Los Angeles’ lineup with control and guile.

Martinez threw just 87 pitches in those seven innings and didn’t walk a batter, but Manuel had seen enough, worrying about Pedro’s pitch count and the stifling heat at Dodger Stadium. Manuel elected to pinch hit for him with Carlos Ruiz(notes) on first base and one out in a 1-0 game.

“He was gone,” Manuel said of Martinez. “I mean, I think he was spent. We got seven innings out of him. When the game started, I was looking anywhere from 70 to 85 pitches, maybe 90 at the most. … He did a tremendous job, and he took it actually farther than I anticipated when the game started. To me, Pedro was done.”

The move backfired spectacularly, and the defending champions wasted a golden opportunity to take a two-game lead in the series.

Martinez felt strong and fresh, but the veteran knew better than to argue with Manuel when he was pulled for pinch-hitter Ben Francisco(notes), who grounded into an inning-ending double play.

Pedro looked like the Martinez of 2003, who ran out of gas before he could pitch the Boston Red Sox into the World Series in Game 7 of the AL championship series.

In a move that broke Red Sox fans’ hearts and contributed to Little’s firing soon after, the manager kept a tiring Martinez on the mound with Boston holding a two-run lead and sitting just five outs away from the World Series. The Yankees rallied to tie it against Martinez, and Aaron Boone’s(notes) 11th-inning homer off Tim Wakefield(notes) sent them into the Series instead.

“As much as you hated anybody with a Red Sox uniform, you always admired how well (Martinez) did his job,” said Dodgers manager Joe Torre, the beneficiary of Little’s 2003 decision with the Yankees. “With his ability to throw a handful of different pitches with varying speed, that’s what the game is all about. Even though he doesn’t have the same velocity he once did, he did a masterful job.”

Manuel’s decision wasn’t made with the stakes quite as high—and after the Philadelphia bullpen’s solid effort in Thursday’s Game 1, Manuel undoubtedly believed he could count on his relievers again.

With Martinez off the mound, the Dodgers jumped on five Philadelphia relievers for a two-run rally capped by Andre Ethier’s(notes) bases-loaded walk from J.A. Happ(notes), and evened the NLCS at one game apiece.

Martinez gave up just two singles, hit one batter and didn’t allow a runner to reach third base. Though he hadn’t started a game since Sept. 30 and hadn’t pitched in the playoffs in five years, Martinez seemed capable of carrying the Phillies even farther.

“Pedro went 17 days without pitching,” Manuel said. “It was a hot day, and I wasn’t even thinking about that. He took us to a point in the game where he pitched a real great game, and it was time for him to go.”

But Chan Ho Park’s(notes) second appearance against his former team didn’t go nearly as well as his first. Park pitched a scoreless seventh inning in Game 1, retiring Manny Ramirez(notes), Matt Kemp(notes) and Casey Blake(notes) in order after Ethier’s leadoff double.

Park gave up hard-luck singles to Blake and Ronnie Belliard(notes), whose rolling grounder he couldn’t corral on his injured hamstring. After Los Angeles scored the tying run on second baseman Chase Utley’s(notes) throwing error on a double-play relay, Jim Thome(notes) singled to chase Park.

“We all have confidence in our bullpen relievers, me especially,” Martinez said. “It just didn’t work out one time. We’re not discouraged. It’s not Game 7.”

Updated Oct 16, 8:54 pm EDT
digg del.icio.us
more
MLB

82 Comments

Post a Comment
  1. richard nixon
    82. Posted by richard nixon Sun Oct 18 12:59am EDT

    Report Abuse

    funny how people expect managers to be soothsayers and know when major league players are suddenly not going to do their jobs. park smoked them on thursday; friday he sucks. utley is mr. phillie until he can't find the first baseman; friday he sucks. who's to say pedro's 88th pitch doesn't go over the wall and all this is moot? it's a goddam game, don't read it, play it.
  2. <i>tomsniners</i>
    81. Posted by tomsniners Sun Oct 18 12:45am EDT

    Report Abuse

    to post 61!!
    interesting comment which started me thinking about how pitchers now go only 5-7 innings and worried about pitch counts and every thing you said...maybe pitchers in the old days how to learn how to pitch better when they were young because they were left in the game with less stuff than they started with.....maybe the pitchers today dont find out how to really pitch until they are over 35 for this reason, they are more throwers and not acual pitchers....i used to pitch in the minors and i never had the same stuff in the 6,7,8,9 inning that i had the first 5. but i learned how to pitch and get hitters out with jamie moyer type stuff....i think you learn how to pitch by not comming out unless you are totally gassed which believe me you know when that is...Pedro must have been done you just dont take hom out in that situation and he is not going to tell the media oh yea i was toast... and i would hate to think if they lose the series they would go back and blame it on anything except they were outplayed or made more mistakes than the dodgers...just a thought!!
  3. <i>tomsniners</i>
    80. Posted by tomsniners Sun Oct 18 12:30am EDT

    Report Abuse

    no if chase utley makes the play its 2-0
  4. <i>wjbrehm</i>
    79. Posted by wjbrehm Sat Oct 17 11:00pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    I wonder if Manuel will leave Martinez in the next time if his pitch count 15-20 pitched below the century mark. If Martinez pitches the eighth inning Philly would be up 2-0.
  5. Jazzinefx
    78. Posted by Jazzinefx Sat Oct 17 9:24pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    @70. Posted by larry c Sat Oct 17 4:41pm EDT

    The thing is had the doubleplay been turned, the pitcher is THINKING a different WAY now. It is questionable at best whether or not the next batter would have gotten a hit!! When the error was committed, it blew any chance, for THINKING DIFFERENTLY about the next batter!!
  6. JoshBatelli
    77. Posted by JoshBatelli Sat Oct 17 8:07pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    Grady Little says leave him in.

    Was that joke made yet?
  7. steve g
    76. Posted by steve g Sat Oct 17 7:13pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    You think Tom Seaver would have came out after 7 with 85 pitches thrown?
  8. bbk
    75. Posted by bbk Sat Oct 17 6:26pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    JK @74 ..read my post #72....Charlie couldn't do it plus Pedro was scheduled to bat next time up. He pitched great no doubt about it, but he did go an inning or two more than his norm. Can't push him, he's not 27 and I know how fragile he is. Manual made the right choice IMO.
  9. JK
    74. Posted by JK Sat Oct 17 6:14pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    Absolutely!!! The whole world knows the Phillies Bully is horrible. Pedro was dealing, got to let him go until he gets in trouble. You have to extend the starters in the post season...
  10. <i>boggmarley</i>
    73. Posted by boggmarley Sat Oct 17 6:02pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    lets go mets 2010 Champs
  11. bbk
    72. Posted by bbk Sat Oct 17 5:32pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    Listen up...I am a Met fan and have observed every inning Pedro pitched for tha last 4 years (it wasn't much the last 2 1/2 ) but I think Manual had to take him out. Pedro has been a 5 inning pitcher for awhile and even when he cam back this year, he pitched around 5 innings. He had a few good starts but had not pitched in a few weeks. The Phils got TWO extra "BONUS" innings out of Pedro and the reality if it all was that the bull pen shold have held the Dodgers. They have guys capable of getting 6 outs. But I have to admit that they miss JC Romero was so important to this pen. That guy always does well but he's hurt. I hope you Philly fans now can understand what my Mets went thru this year! Look at what happened w/ one main piece...try with about a dozen pieces missing! It gets tougher w/ each injury. The Phils should be ok though. YOu have a best of 5 now and will have Cliff Lee pitching two of those so it's very likely they make it to the world series aginst the Yankees. That will be a good one. So Good Luck!
  12. Philly fanDoc
    71. Posted by Philly fanDoc Sat Oct 17 5:05pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    Agreed Larry.
    But what Cholly should have done is let Pedro start the 8th, and have Madson ready. He's using the bullpen like it's the 7th game of the series.

    When he shouldn't.
    Hey we're home. All we need to get is two games and then go back out to LA and have Pedro throw another gem.
  13. larry
    70. Posted by larry Sat Oct 17 4:41pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    Everyone blames Chase for not getting the double play but have'nt stopped to think it would have made no difference. The next guy got a hit and the run would have scored anyway. Think about it ! Manuel screwed up taking Pedro out when he did. PERIOD !! hE IS A HITTERS MANAGER. Don't know how to handle pitchers. Just look how many times last few years he left pitchers in getting hit left and right and took pitchers out who were pitching good. It's time to forget that stupid 100 pitch count.
  14. Philly fanDoc
    69. Posted by Philly fanDoc Sat Oct 17 4:39pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    What Chase needs is a 6-4-3 or a 5-4-3 doubleplay the 1st few innings the next game or this is going to get ugly.
  15. Jim R
    68. Posted by Jim R Sat Oct 17 4:24pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    I agree with Owen. If a guy has only thown 85 pitches, has no walks, and six or seven strikeouts, he still has what it takes to win the game. There are probably hundreds of examples where starters are taken out of the game and the bullpen loses the game. The modern era of baseball pitching decisions are just plain stupid at times. I have seen similar games with pitcher giving up only 2 hits, no walks, and 8 strike-outs, and being pulled for a pinch-hitter. In the old days, the pitcher was pulled whenever he go into trouble, giving up walks, hits, and runs---not because of some self-imposed pitch count. More GMs and managers need to listen to Nolan Ryan, and what he is doing with the Texas Rangers.
  16. craig
    67. Posted by craig Sat Oct 17 4:11pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    I thought it was obvious he pulled him to soon they lost didnt they
  17. John
    66. Posted by John Sat Oct 17 2:28pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    Thank you, Mr. Manuel!!! 16 years after the most infamous trade in Dodgers history, Pedro was 6 outs away from exercising some ultimate revenge against his former team. He threw 119 pitches on September 8th against the Nats and 130 pitches on September 13th against the Mets. He only threw 87 pitches yesterday in 7 innings against the Dodgers, with no signs of weakness. So he could have EASILY thrown another 20-30 pitches at least. No runs and two measly hits - that's all they had off of him! Only a fool pulls a pitcher pitching as brilliantly as Pedro was yesterday. So thank you again Mr. Manuel for gifting us game 2... Us Dodger fans sure needed the early Christmas present!
  18. Jazzinefx
    65. Posted by Jazzinefx Sat Oct 17 2:19pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    @Posted by joe racer Sat Oct 17 1:25pm EDT

    Pedro started out in the National League, with a brief stint with the Dodgers, from there he went to the Montreal Expos, from there he went to Boston RedSox, from there he went to the New York Mets, from there, out of baseball for a while, now he's with the Philadelphia Phillies!!
  19. <i>cyberyank00</i>
    64. Posted by cyberyank00 Sat Oct 17 1:58pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    manuel is a low moron and it's obvious every time he tries to speak. at least be man enough after the game to admit he blew it. as for utley he too was looking for excuses instead of shouldering the blame for costing his team the game. next time he chokes on an easy throw he ass should be riding the bench. three strikes and yer out!
  20. joe racer
    63. Posted by joe racer Sat Oct 17 1:25pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    the Nat league must be horrible- look at all the AL pitchers who got beat up and sent to Nat league teams and how good they're doing. Doesn't bode well for either LA or Philly.
  21. T.J. B
    62. Posted by T.J. B Sat Oct 17 12:10pm EDT

    Report Abuse

    i don't think he pulled him too early. it was a good move, just looked bad on his part because the bullpen didn't execute. not to mention his pinch hitter hit into a double play
  22. Mickey536
    61. Posted by Mickey536 Sat Oct 17 11:59am EDT

    Report Abuse

    The issue of removing starters too soon has become an increasingly bigger problem over the past few years. Look at the number as an aggregate. Starters reducing their innings. In the old days guys like Gibson and Koufax completd 20 or more games a season. Now starters go anywhere from 5 - 7 innings. It's at the point where 6 IP with 3 runs allowed isd considered a "quality start." That's a
    4.50 ERA, which historically was never a good earned run average. Starters get pulled early (the pitch count crap) and bullpens continually blow leads all around the leagues. That's why there are hardly any 20 game winners anymore. And relievers with far too many decisions on their record.
    The Pedro lost outing (and lost game) is all too common in the "modern era." In general middle relievers suck, setup men are lacking, and closers are seen too often and are less of a mystery to hitters. It's become a problem for purists. I think it started with the union and escaladed from their.
  23. sinq
    60. Posted by sinq Sat Oct 17 11:49am EDT

    Report Abuse

    has anyone thought that this is just game 2. If Pedro was overused in this game he might not be avaiable for game 7. So all just shut up. Chase screwed up, hes human. Go PHilsssssss
  24. Shirley
    59. Posted by Shirley Sat Oct 17 11:46am EDT

    Report Abuse

    goooooo doyeerrrrrrssssss!!!!!!!!
  25. Kenneth W
    58. Posted by Kenneth W Sat Oct 17 11:26am EDT

    Report Abuse

    You guys get on Tony becasue he waited to long and now this....easy to second guess and ask stupid questions....post it at the time, put yourself on the line, the fact is, it was not pitching that beat them....the double play is pulled off and you don't have a question to ask.....
Sign in to post a comment, or sign up for a free account

Video Spotlight

More Videos »

YAHOO! SPORTS

ALSO ON YAHOO!

THINGS YOU CAN DO

- Site Map

Copyright © 2009 2009 STATS LLC and The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the STATS/AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of STATS LLC and The Associated Press.