Big League Stew - MLB

It used to be that the only debate over Roger Clemens' Hall of Fame induction was what cap he'd be wearing on his bronzed plaque — Red Sox or Yankees? (Sorry, Jays and 'Stros fans.) Yet even that wasn't much of an argument. With Boston fans long since over his departure, it seemed a foregone conclusion he'd be wearing a Bomber hat on the big day.

All of that changed, of course, after December, when Clemens' name dominated the Mitchell Report headlines and he prepared to defend his image against former trainer Brian McNamee on Capitol Hill.

Now, in the wake of last week's allegations over his personal life, it seems like Clemens has one more factor working against his election on a first ballot — and maybe even in elections after that one.

Since the Stew strives to be a good melting pot of ideas and opinions, I solicited views from four different baseball bloggers and had them offer a few ideas to my questions.

Will the latest allegations add even more obstacles to his Hall of Fame path? Did his image take an even bigger hit than it did back in December? Was such a thing even possible? Answers and ideas are below:

David Chalk, Bugs & Cranks: "Have they discovered Roger’s ties to that polygamist cult in Texas yet? I'm pretty certain of two things — There will be more revelations (Crikey! He did what to Greg Norman's wife?) — and nothing will keep him out of the Hall for more than a ballot or two.

"Why? It's what Jose Canseco said — it's the Bushes, stupid.  If they can steal a presidential election or two, you think they can't get some reporters to vote in Roger Clemens?  Plus, I bet those Steinbrenners still have a soft spot for him, and that Astros owner too. People barely care about Clemens now, will any of this really be a big deal six years from now?  It’s not like we’ve seen any nefarious Internet referendums to get the Hall Of Fame to accept desecrated memorabilia from his proudest career achievements.  Plus, can you imagine the ratings and print sales the induction ceremony would generate?"

Rob Iracane, Walkoff Walk: "Dozens of sanctimonious baseball writers are waiting with bated breath to exercise their veto power on the best pitcher of my generation. They did it to Mark McGwire, they'll probably do it to Barry Bonds and they'll definitely do it to Roger Clemens. We're living in a new era of Hall of Fame voting; where every single aspect of a baseball player's lifestyle can be evaluated and every single allegation against a player is taken at face value without the truth ever coming out. Did Roger Clemens pitch better than anyone in the past 25 years? Yes. Did Roger Clemens do steroids? Probably. Is Roger Clemens a total jerk? I certainly don't want to be friends with the man. Will Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall of Fame after all of Brian McNamee's sordid accusations? Hell no.

"Clemens stands no chance against a small but vocal minority of angry writers and will probably have to wait to be voted in by a future incarnation of the Veterans Committee. Probably once all the noise about steroids has been drowned out by some new controversy, like performance-enhancing brussels sprouts. Oh, the horrors of Vitamin A!"

Dan Lamothe, Red Sox Monster: "Five years ago, when the educated baseball-loving public thought about Roger Clemens, his thorniness and temper were largely overwhelmed by his undeniable greatness on the diamond. I think I speak for many when I say that while I didn't like him as a fan, it was hard not to admire him — to look at those legendary leg workouts and marvel at the way he rejuvenated his career.
 
"Over the last six months, that has all changed. The problem for Clemens is that the skeletons that have come out of the closet to haunt him make it difficult to see him as anything but Mr. Pants On Fire, as a guy who wouldn't only take the wimp's lunch money during high school, but shank him in the back for daring to complain about it.
 
"I think there's little doubt that Clemens won't get into the Hall of Fame on the first rounds of voting, at the very least. The best he can hope for is that he avoids criminal charges (perjury, for one) and becomes a sympathetic figure in his later years. It's a tall order, to say the least."

Maureen Ryan, The Yankees Chick: "Of all the players (or managers ... or owners ... or fans ... no one is safe) I make fun of, no one since Carl Pavano has made it as easy as Roger "Just Like OJ, I Didn't Do It" Clemens has this year. In just a few short months we've been treated to everything from steroids allegations to the latest sex scandal, and even the most hardcore Rocket fans such as myself are finding themselves incapable of stifling their laughter with each new development at this point.

"I really am a big Rocket fan and honestly tried to give him the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of all this — what hard evidence does Trainer Boy have, after all? — but the deluge of allegations that keep raining down upon him are enough to make any apologetic fan (or voter) take a defensive stance. He made an ambiguous and multi-purpose apology for un-named "personal mistakes" yesterday, but he left it up to our curious little brains to decide just which allegations he was apologizing for.

Was it the juice use? The alleged relationship with a 15-year-old future country star? The beaning of his son in a batting practice session a couple years ago? I like to think it was for disappointing the Yankees Chick."

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53 Comments

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  1. Mickey D.
    1. Posted by Mickey D. Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:14 pm EDT

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    Put Clemens in (in a Red Sox hat, by the way).
    Keep Rose out.
  2. Re-Run
    2. Posted by Re-Run Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:20 pm EDT

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    Clemens needs to go in the Hall in a Sox cap since that is where the only untainted Hall of Fame performances occurred. If you take his career though and cut 1/3 off of it, the guy is still a Hall of Famer.
    Let's jsut assume he did steroids, HGH and whatever else. Haven't we basically agreed that all the batters did the same as well? WOuldn't that then make all performances relative and render his dominance pretty impressive nonetheless.
  3. Boy George Fan Club
    3. Posted by Boy George Fan Club Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:54 pm EDT

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    He should go to the Hall wearing a NAMBLA hat.
  4. jimmy
    4. Posted by jimmy Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:35 pm EDT

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    Haven't we basically agreed that all the batters did the same as well? ALL THE BATTERS ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND.ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT SPREAD ALL THIS CRAP ....ALL THE BATTERS ...GIVE US A BREAK
  5. Butt Pirate
    5. Posted by Butt Pirate Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:03 pm EDT

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    Re-Run, the reason for excluding him isn't related to his performance, which was Hall of Fame caliber even before one would surmise he started on the juice. This is the same with Bonds. The reason for excluding them is that they cheated.
    Pete Rose, since he never bet on his own team to lose, hasn't done nearly as much damage to baseball's reputation and ethics as these juicers.
  6. Kyle
    6. Posted by Kyle Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:53 pm EDT

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    Bonds and Clemens out. Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe in. Simple as that. If you know baseball and have any respect for the game, this wouldn't even be debated.
  7. MichaelH
    7. Posted by MichaelH Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:17 pm EDT

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    What is missing about the steroid/HGH issue is evidence. If any has appeared beyond McNamee I haven't heard it. If McNamee's have been verified, I haven't seen it. Even if McNamee gave him something, what evidence is there that Clemens knew what he was taking ? What has dominated sports talk shows has been speculation, innuendo, or, per Iracane above, calculations that he "probably" took steroids. Good argument could be made that Clemens is the best pitcher ever. Doesn't he deserve an actual trial (or fact-finding tribunal) before he is branded a cheat and a liar. Of what relevance is it who he slept with ?
  8. Txsnowman
    8. Posted by Txsnowman Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:25 pm EDT

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    ..the batters and pitchers were on steroids, even the ball was juiced, only makes me wonder what the the umpires are on?
  9. William A
    9. Posted by William A Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:51 pm EDT

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    Shoeless Joe?
    Sorry no, keep him out. You don't make the hall of fame by throwing a world series for some cash. Long since dead, and famous enough for it occurring, he won't need the hall to live on through history.
  10. skennedylaw
    10. Posted by skennedylaw Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:25 pm EDT

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    Actually to be blunt WHO CARES. Sure i like to watch sports,i don't realy care about their personal lifes. If they break a law put them injail like anybody else. But all it is is a bunch of mega millionares that will stab fans in the back ( yes there are a few rare exceptions) to make a litle more money. Shoeless Joe got screw, Pete Rose Got screwed ---But who otside baseball fans even knows who they are. i don't care one way or the other If the Rocket gets in the HOF. I liked to watch him pitch and he was a great player. Enough for me.
  11. Miguel P
    11. Posted by Miguel P Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:44 pm EDT

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    Stop being moralist and hypocrite, what you do in your personal life has nothing to do with your baseball career, as Christ said when they were trying to punish Mary Magdalene "Let the one without sin throw the first stone", it goes to all you people out there, stop punishing Clemmens, Bonds, Sosa and Rose, they belong in the Hall of Fame a long time ago, you don't for being a bunch of hypocrites, no one is a saint less preach what you are not
  12. OilPatch
    12. Posted by OilPatch Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:46 pm EDT

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    - 2 years with the blue jays.
    - 2 cy young awards.
    talk about batting 1.000!
    wear a jays cap roger, think outside the box.
  13. Jack Phoenix
    13. Posted by Jack Phoenix Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:26 pm EDT

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    A couple of quick views on what we've seen here so far:
    Pete Rose: My personal feeling is you put him in, as a PLAYER. want to keep him away from the fields after, so be it. he wouldn't be going in as a manager, period, anyway.
    Shoeless Joe: Ted Williams wanted him in, and he was a baseball historian more than any of us. There were no errors commit by Joe, his fielding wasn't tainted from what I have read. There was suspicion he played his position different than usual, but when things are going awry, any little thing that seems different gets magnified tenfold. Also, he hit for an incredible average in the series, as well as the only HR in the series.
    Barry Bonds, and Clemens. This is where it gets a little sticky. I used to think, heck, no they don't belong if they did. A little more looking over things and I have changed my mind because of a couple of things.
    1. They, according to the BASEBALL rules, did nothing wrong. There was nothing in the rulebook saying they COULD NOT take the stuff. Morally, yes, it's a crap deal. According to MLB at the time though, they were within the lines. ( Think back to basketball and weed during the late 80's, with their rules. That wasn't written in either for NBA players). Another thing. If you gave Spike Owen or Julio Lugo the same amount of Roids that any of the others supposingly did? Their HR ratios never would spike so much. the guys suspected were great already,and it probably helped, yes, but if it did, it seems not by much. from what research has said? It can't help a batters eye any better, or a pitchers control.
    If they can't get in, other cheaters should not, and be removed. First on the list is Phil Niekro, who had a whole battery of lubricants and gels on the baseball that probably can't be listed here.
    Personal life? Take Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby (KKK, I think they said), Joe Cronin ( sold off Pee Wee Reese's club to the Dodgers because he was a Catholic, for one) Mickey Mantle (Drink AND womanizing) and, well, ect...
    And just to argue for arguements sake. Burt Blyleven belongs in, if All the other pitchers with over 3,000 K's can get in. Not his fault he had crap teams to back him up.
    Oh, and Clemens Vs Walter Johnson, for best pitcher? Johnson, by far. A pitcher is supposed to make sure the other team never scores, and his record of shutouts: 110. No one even close. Blyleven, for instance had 60, and clemens had 'only' 46.
    It could be argued that Maddux is just as good as roger, too, of not better.
  14. Bobby R
    14. Posted by Bobby R Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:10 pm EDT

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    The Redsox Nation is no doubt embarrassed that this child molester played in red.
  15. phuq u
    15. Posted by phuq u Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:10 pm EDT

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    "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.". Its only because soap operas arent popular anymore that anybody is even paying attention to others personal lives.
  16. darrell v
    16. Posted by darrell v Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:20 pm EDT

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    Put Rose inb forget abot the child molester, if anything put him in jail.
  17. billieboy
    17. Posted by billieboy Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:07 pm EDT

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    Clemens will be in the Hall of Fame someday based on his baseball career.
    Regardless of his " extramarital " brouhaha which have NOTHING to do
    with the issue of HGH or steroids, time will tell you whether or not
    Clemens took them. Frankly, the media are terrible in giving their bad
    " hypocritical " views on Clemens. There were several athletes ,who were
    guilty of different felonies or misdeamnors , still got in the H O F for some
    whatever reasons. For Pete Rose, sadly he will never get in.
    For Barry Bonds, he probably will get in by the votes of the Veterans
    Committee instead of by the vote of ' jaundiced ' sportwriters who hate him.
  18. Bobby R
    18. Posted by Bobby R Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:10 pm EDT

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    Child molesters and cheats will not get in to the hall...
  19. CW
    19. Posted by CW Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:27 pm EDT

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    leave rocket out and put in mike cubbage! it's the only answer.
  20. Older_than_Moses_Shaq
    20. Posted by Older_than_Moses_Shaq Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:56 pm EDT

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    Baseball HOF is one that includes the overall aspect of a person. In that sense it's clear he may have trouble getting the votes he so dearly desires. And, I won't blame the voters at all if they chose to deny him. He may've been a great pitcher, but clearly, he's not a good human being.
  21. Gary S
    21. Posted by Gary S Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:04 pm EDT

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    Keep them all out of the hall, it's not like we're putting them in jail. Don't need evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Part of the honor has to do with character, plus greatness.
  22. Spartan Court Jester
    22. Posted by Spartan Court Jester Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:57 pm EDT

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    I think many here are missing the real point. Yes, there are several scumbags in the Hall, but did they VOLUNTARILY go before Congress and commit perjury? As for the revelency of his extramarital activities, they ARE relevant if Clemens still insists on the defamation suit against McNamee. It goes to his (lack of) moral character and reinforces his sorry lying, needle punctured butt. And it all could have been avoided if he had just said he didn't do steroids or HGH and then went into hidding. Eventually it would go away and he could be elected to the HOF. But he and he alone decided to consciously commit perjury by INSISTING on his time before Congress. He was NOT subpoened, in fact Congressman Waxman said in his opening remarks that he didn't want to hold the hearing at all. Now Roger the Dodger is caught between a rock and hard place. If he drops the suit, it would imply he is guilty of doping. If he continues the suit, and Rusty, Rusty Hardin puts him on the stand, he will, once again commit perjury.
  23. douglas
    23. Posted by douglas Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:49 pm EDT

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    are all fans turning into 15yr old girls. obsessed with the personal lives of their stars? the kind of subjects most of these morons are saying make keep clemens out of the hall are not related in any way to his abilities on the field. when did any of this become our business? let's look at babe ruth, how about ty cobb. what about mickey mantle. these, among others are in the hall and are thought of in glowing terms. a so-called innocent age of baseball and america. lest we forget, world war ii, the cold war, the depression, mc carthy etc. the reason today's players seem soooo bad to the avg. yahoo is, we know more about them! because we're nosey! mantle was a drunk and womanizer, as was ruth, ( do you really think he got sick enough to miss lots of games because he ate 12 hot dogs?) get real america. ty cobb? sharpen his metal cleats to hurt opposing players? come on... barkley said it best, i ain't no role model. i'm not supposed to be...
  24. douglas
    24. Posted by douglas Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:49 pm EDT

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    and another thing, most of you don't want to believe those players in the 50-60-70s took anything to enhance their game. you're only fooling yourselves. not your heroes! bull! tom house, a pitcher in the sixties-seventies, said that throughout the clubhouse after a loss, the players would say " why are their horse drugs better than ours, and where can we get some of their's" so stuff your,"oh, today's players aren't as good or all cheat. " i've followed baseball very, very closely for about 40 yrs. so you'd think i'd be like most of you that live in the past( on baseball and music) but ya know what? it's better than it's ever been. get off your high horse and remember, just because you buy a ticket to a game or a movie, unless they're breaking the law, it's not your call! if you can't watch the games without wondering if they're having one more beer than you deem acceptable(as if you count) turn the damn tv off and watch something made for mindless people, like american idol or dancing with the stars!
  25. J
    25. Posted by J Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:19 pm EDT

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    Clemens last 10 yrs have been a fraud- you're deaf, dumb, and blind if you don't understand that.
    Pete Rose was left out for something unaffecting his play- and yet he'll never see the hall;
    Why should Clemens be in?
    Beyond that, I hate pedophiles......

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