Breakfast Table: Peyton makes perfect

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From: Scott Pianowski
Date: November 18, 2009 2:54:16 PM EST
To: Michael Salfino
Subject: we don’t punt breakfast

Alright, let’s get this party started. (I’m going with the one-word spelling as a nod to our pending halftime entertainment.)

Dick Jauron got the kindest in-season firing ever – because of L’Affair Belichick, I’m not sure anyone really noticed. Got anything interesting to add to the Bill Belichick story? Do the Jets have a puncher’s chance in the grudge match at Foxboro?

A tip of the cap, you were out in front of the Chargers story. Why does the San Diego-Denver rematch leave me a little cold? Maybe it’s because watching Chris Simms(notes) makes my eyes bleed. Give me a reason to tune in.

Do the Colts or Saints have a shot at running the table? What’s happened to Baltimore’s offense after that tidy start? We should discuss the Colts-Ravens somewhere in here. What becomes of Eric Mangini after he’s fired in January?

The Cowboys, Falcons and Steelers spit the bit last week after getting an endorsement from at least one of us. What’s fact and what’s fiction with these clubs? And explain to all of us how you see the Giants winning 11 games.

I’ve set the table, add whatever you like and mix well. Week 11 Breakfast is served.

From: Michael Salfino
Date: November 18, 2009 3:22:49 PM EST
To: Scott Pianowski
Subject: Re: we don’t punt breakfast

Well, remember, I said afterward that I made the specific prediction for dramatic effect. But I will take credit for seeing that the Broncos were a fraudulent Super Bowl contender even with a healthy Kyle Orton(notes). (Think for a second of how funny those last six words are and you get a sense for how wild the Orton stuff was about a month ago – MVP!?! Who did we all turn into, Peter King?)

I don’t see the controversy with Belichick, really. And you know going back years that no one would like to hoist him on his petard as much as me. That taking a safety crap against the Broncos that cemented his genius was completely overblown as it was essentially meaningless to the outcome. But this was absolutely necessary. My thoughts:

Games have momentum and it was all with the Colts. Manning was hot and just about unstoppable. You give him back the ball at the two minute warning and with a timeout and time is not a factor. You have to stop him. The first 30 yards you’re not even trying to defend. So then the game is the last 30 yards. He got them after the failed fourth down and he very likely would have got them without it. The best way to look at this is, if you’re rooting for the Colts, what do you want the Patriots to do on fourth-and-2? If you have a clue, you want them to punt the ball. You don’t want Brady, 7-for-10 in third-and-short situations this year at this point and 16-for-19 in 2007, getting another play where he can hit five different guys for the conversion.

The Saints are going to be favorites, I think, in all of their remaining games. So, yes, they have a shot. Speaking for fantasy owners of Pierre Thomas(notes) and now Marques Colston(notes), I hope some team wipes that smug little smirk off Sean Payton’s face. I want to see him going down without getting the ball to his best back and best receiver. Share the wealth right to the poor house, son.

You know, the Colts have won 12 games or more every year since 2003? How incredible is Manning? Imagine if he was on a good team all these years! Indy does just enough around him, I will stipulate, but nothing more. There’s nothing 12-winnish about the rest of this team ever. I can’t say the line is great, because they can’t run block despite all the Manning advantages. (I give Manning at least half the sack credit). The receivers are okay, but Reggie Wayne(notes) has hit the jackpot. Put Steve Smith (Giants) or Jerricho Cotchery(notes) on the Colts and they would be Wayne, I guarantee it. Dallas Clark(notes) is 80 percent a product of Manning.

The Ravens bore me. They can’t beat the Colts because they can’t defend the pass. And we got ahead of ourselves with Joe Flacco(notes) and that offense, too.

Matt Ryan(notes) – average QB now. And that’s not bad for a second year guy. He has enough and isn’t winning games when the game is resting on him. The rest of the Falcons team, on balance, is bad.

I still like the Cowboys. That game in Green Bay was weird. Everything went wrong and there was never any offensive rhythm. I think they probably stay ahead of the Giants and win that division.

Mangini and the Browns in general – snore.

The Giants aren’t losing at home to Atlanta this week. Then, they’re at Denver – easy win (with or without Orton). That’s seven wins. We can quibble about 10 or 11 but I don’t see how they fail to reach double digits. They get the Cowboys and Eagles (who aren’t any good – half of McNabb’s incompletions are poor throws or drops – at home). At Minnesota is now very unlikely to be contested, too in Week 17.

From: Scott Pianowski
Date: November 19, 2009 11:15:56 PM EST
To: Michael Salfino
Subject: Re: we don’t punt breakfast

Marques Colston did fumble away a touchdown last week but I hear you – Payton at times seems to have the designer’s arrogance. Get your football to your best players. Pierre Thomas is criminally underused.

Bill Belichick is one of the few tenured coaches in sports who’s allowed to do what he wants with game strategy, unconventional or not. Most of these guys are playing for the friendliest loss, playing not to get crushed by the media. Heck, remember the Mike Shanahan two-pointer last year, we were talking about how he was one of the few coaches with the security to make that call. Four months later, he’s packing up and headed out.

You don’t give Reggie Wayne enough credit. Perfect routes, quick out of his breaks, velcro hands. Maybe he doesn’t have that one skill that makes your jaw drop, but what’s wrong with being great at everything?

The underreported story in Baltimore is that the pass defense really isn’t that good (20th in YPA allowed). I blame some of Flacco’s struggles on the receivers – there’s only so far you can go with an old Derrick Mason(notes) as your No. 1. They’ve done a nice job with Ray Rice(notes) and they rebuilt the line quickly, but I don’t think they’ll give the Colts much trouble.

Matt Ryan will be fine. It’s a shame they don’t have a Joseph Addai(notes) type here, someone who can pick up the blitz, release for all those massaging checkdowns. Two trustable receivers isn’t enough – every good passing team has more than that. And you get the idea Roddy White’s(notes) knee is bothering him more than the team is letting on.

The Cowboys are like the Eagles, they rely too much on big plays. Give either team a third-and-short and they have no clue what to do. It’s obvious Marion Barber(notes) isn’t healthy and that really hurts what Dallas wants to do on offense.

I don’t mind when the Dick Vermeil types cry after an emotional game, but when it’s burly men like Rex Ryan, something’s wrong. Defend the Jersey tearjerker.

From: Michael Salfino
Date: November 19, 2009 11:46:59 PM EST
To: Scott Pianowski
Subject: Re: we don’t punt breakfast

Finally. Do I discuss Week 12 now?

Wayne is not great at everything. He’s a very good, tops. If he’s “great,” what’s Larry Fitzgerald(notes)? Put Wayne on the Panthers and he’s toast. As (Chris) Liss and I talked about on his podcast today, if you put Derrick Mason on the Colts for his career, he’s an inner-circle HOF’er.

Same deal with Dallas Clark. “He’s so athletic,” we always hear. I call bullcrap on that. He has average athleticism for an NFL tight end. Put him on the Ravens for his career and he’s lucky if he’s Todd Heap(notes).

The Ravens are actually 18th in YPA allowed, but that’s the week after the Browns. Other teams get to play them, too, I know. Liss was funny because he was talking about how unstoppable Manning is and then was trying to talk me into going with him and backing the Ravens. I guess he allows himself to pick only one road favorite per week.

We’re supposed to feel sorry for Ryan because he’s been stuck with that stiff Michael Turner(notes)? Turner picks up a blitz just fine. Look, there’s nothing wrong with regressing to average in your second year. The possibilities for him are all still in play.

I don’t understand your body mass index-to-tears formula. I’m past crying over the Jets, but I was there when I was young and relatively carefree. This is his career. He goes to battle with his guys every week. He lived with them all summer. Caring enough to tear up when trying to rally his team is fine with me. But all this crap is just a sideshow. The Jets need to start winning close games. They’re plus-41 in point differential and are 4-5, which is very unlucky. Look at the Bengals at plus-51 – they are 7-2. Pittsburgh is only plus-50. They won’t lose close this week, though. Brady and Belichick will beat them big.

You have to give up that Cowboys short-yardage angle. It’s tortured. Dallas is 11-for-16 converting third down and two yards or less (7-for-8 on the ground). The Eagles are 13-for-22. You’re suffering from confirmation bias with both teams. It’s common. We all do it. We have an opinion and remember only what supports it and forget everything else. I know about it AND STILL do it. At this point, “the Eagles suck at short yardage” meme will never die.

Here’s the bottom line on the Cowboys and why they remain very dangerous despite the egg they laid in Green Bay. Any team that plays Dallas can play their A-game and still lose if Dallas plays its A-game. Now, I’ll grant you, Dallas plays its A-game way too infrequently, especially when all the marbles are in play.

Updated Nov 20, 1:54 am EST
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22 Comments

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    TJA Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:09 am PST Report Abuse
    Whoa. i think dallas clark just replied to this post. what a catch.
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    Hat Sun Nov 22, 2009 07:52 am PST Report Abuse
    As Ryan Taylor and I discussed on this morning "Pot aka Toilet" report, Derrick Mason is product of his surroundings. The guy has never made a play in his career. Run this 10 yard route and make a terrific route. He can't hold a flame to a HOF receiver such as Marvin Harrison.

    Just because you name drop and think by talking with Chris Liss, of East Coast of Offense makes you sound like you know what you are talking about, it doesn't.

    Ryan Taylor has won 6 out of 7 of my fantasy leagues of a very competitive league, do you think because I talked to him while sitting on the pot this morning, makes me smart? I have never read this "Breakfast Table" article before, and I hope I have never read anything you've wrote before. It would have made me less smart.
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    Hat Sun Nov 22, 2009 07:39 am PST Report Abuse
    Wow! I am amazed at the undervalue Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark are getting. The "thing" you are failing to realize is Peyton is made better by his surroundings, just as they are made better by having Peyton throw him the ball. Of course you throw Wayne in Carolina, and his is mediocre, but Steve Smith is mediocre with Delhomme throwing him the rock. Jerry Rice would be mediocre with Delhomme throwing him the ball. That argument is weak, at best. And for Steve Smith and Jerricho Cotchery being able to replace Wayne, they would have problems being Pierre Garcon and Austin Collie. I don't know your credentials but whatever they are should be brought into question. How can we trust anything you say? If you pay attention to Reggie Wayne's career, maybe the 2003 Reggie Wayne was "benefiting" primarily from the greatness of Manning, but Reggie has improved every year and has every tool and the knowledge of an elite WR. Maybe Larry Fitzgerald is in a class above Reggie, but that's because he is a freak. I am afraid you have something against the Colts for your opinions to be so negative. For me to read that, makes my jaw drop. With Dallas, his hands and his knowledge of the routes along with his athleticism make him a great pass catching TE. His chemistry with Peyton is second to none. You can't throw some Joe Smo into the mix. Just please realize every player is a product of their surroundings. Even a "great" player can't make orange juice from apples. Steve Smith (NYG) and Jerricho Cotchery, are you kidding me? WOW! I need to go see a doctor and find some meds to get my blood pressure down, that is crazy talk.
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    david b Sun Nov 22, 2009 04:16 am PST Report Abuse
    The Ravens/Colts line opened with the Ravens favored by a point, so technically the Colts couldn't have been considered a road favorite. Also a bit odd that Yahoo Sports claimed yesterday that Mississippi upset LSU when Mississippi was favored by 6 when the lines closed.
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    trevor Sat Nov 21, 2009 04:01 pm PST Report Abuse
    You are wrong about Baltimore's offense. They will take down Indy tomorrow.
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    Salfino Sat Nov 21, 2009 06:33 am PST Report Abuse
    And if lovin' Manning is wrong. I don't want to be right!
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    Salfino Sat Nov 21, 2009 06:32 am PST Report Abuse
    I agree with Porche almost fully. But I'll say Wayne is more than just "above average." I'll stipulate he's good. But a lot of guys could do what he's doing. It's the old Al Toon, Jerry Rice things. The Niners loved Toon, some say over Rice. But the Jets grabbed Toon. Flip their careers. Toon gets Montana, Young and Walsh. Rice gets O'Brien, Esiason, Walton and Kotite. Who goes to the Hall of Fame and who is viewed merely as a Pro Bowl-level receiver now?
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    porsche_playa Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:23 pm PST Report Abuse
    Well, not *all* Colts receivers pan out. Remember Jerome Pathon and E G Green? Pathon was a 2nd rounder and Green was a 3rd rounder back in the late 90's. Neither one of them really panned out, though Pathon was at least able to eke out a journeyman career.

    Wayne's an interesting case. He's not particularly good at RAC, nor does he really have deep speed, nor does he exactly fit the possession receiver mold. What he does do well is get open and then catch the ball (somewhere near 65% of the time for his career) on intermediate routes. He seems to live in that 10-20 yard zone.

    How much of that is Wayne and how much is Manning? You tell me.

    I'd say that Wayne is definitely a better than average receiver no matter who throws him the ball but without Manning he wouldn't be putting up the HOF numbers.
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    comedian_for_hire Fri Nov 20, 2009 07:22 pm PST Report Abuse
    Thomas owner. Well said Mike. Hope his poor house collapses in on itself when he shows up....
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    Kid Fri Nov 20, 2009 02:18 pm PST Report Abuse
    When we try to do the chicken/egg thing between QB/WR, and even RB/offensive line, it's always an endless loop. Basically what we have left to evaluate talent is extreme cases, i.e., Chris Johnson on a poor Tennesee team and Steven Jackson on a totally inept Rams team, versus questionable cases - guys who might simply be succeeding because of the right combination of talent, environment and opportunity. Reggie Wayne has had all three in spades; A no-question HOF QB on an elite offensive team with a University of Miami pedigree. Until we see how he does with half a season of Jim Sorgi, it's just a guessing game. I'd still guess that he'd be a top-15 WR in the NFL even with a backup-level QB, or maybe he's the 2009 version of Steve Smith.

    I don't know that I've ever seen an NFL team with so many dangerous runners hindered by such an aversion to rushing as the 2009 Dallas Cowboys. Barber is one of the best rushing/receiving threats in the game, and a complete dominator at the goal line. Felix Jones picks up 6 or 7 yards every time he touches the ball. Tashard Choice - the third stringer - is getting 4.9 YPC! There's almost no reason that the Cowboys shouldn't be rushing 40 times per game. I know that today's NFL is all about the pass, but why not exploit a strength when it's such an overwhelming strength?
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    Yahoo! Sports Staff pianow Fri Nov 20, 2009 02:13 pm PST
    Mike, this love affair with Peyton Manning is getting ridiculous. Peyton's great, but why can't his receivers get some credit too? Reggie Wayne could make a one-handed catch off the turf, break seven tackles and run 93 yards for a score and you'd be gushing, "What a throw by Peyton!" The quarterback is the most important position, of course, but football is more team-reliant than most sports.
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    eddy g Fri Nov 20, 2009 02:06 pm PST Report Abuse
    who starts meachem,nicks, or bryant?
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    Salfino Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:42 pm PST Report Abuse
    Jerricho Cotchery in a career with Peyton Manning -- HOF'er. 'Nuff said. MDS: The Cowboys have a running game, however. You are correct though about running really being important with red zone efficiency unless you go run-and-shoot and run out of four wides (which you should do anyway). Just to tick everyone off, I say again: Every team that's every committed to the run&shoot has made the playoffs with it at least one year. Name another system that can claim that, let alone an extinct one.
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    bradley Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:37 pm PST Report Abuse
    1. Larry Fitzgerald
    2. Randy Moss
    3. Reggie Wayne

    Do you see the catches Reggie Wayne makes? No matter where Peyton puts it, reggie grabs it!
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    NJ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:12 pm PST Report Abuse
    oh I forgot Ochocinco
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    NJ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:08 pm PST Report Abuse
    Reggie Wayne might not be a top 4 WR, but he is definitely top ten. To compare him to Derrick Mason is not fair. Does Manning make him and all his receivers much better? of course, but that should not take away from wayne's ability. The only receivers that are to me clearly better are fitzy, AJohnson, Steve smith, Calvin Johnson, and Randy Moss, and maybe roddie white and greg jennings.
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    Ted Dibiase Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:24 am PST Report Abuse
    red zone percentage and third down conversion stats stem from lack of running game
    red zone trips are low from the number of big plays...
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    RotoWire_Liss Fri Nov 20, 2009 05:59 am PST Report Abuse
    Both Dallas and Philly lose red zone appearances by scoring from distance, though. The conversion rate is the issue.
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    Salfino Fri Nov 20, 2009 05:31 am PST Report Abuse
    Late first-round picks. But, technically, yes. Still, that's a marginal investment. Notice how all the receivers who the Colts draft pan out?
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    Yahoo! Sports Staff pianow Fri Nov 20, 2009 01:27 am PST
    Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark were both first-round draft picks. It's not like these guys were bagging groceries and Peyton made them into Pro Bowlers. I'm all for the glorification of Manning to a point, but the Colts have aggressively drafted for offense during the Bill Polian era.
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    TJA Fri Nov 20, 2009 01:23 am PST Report Abuse
    I'm not going to debate the athleticism of Dallas Clark, or skill level. But if you watch Indy week-in, week-out, you'd know that his greatest asset is his complete lack of fear.

    I know you can point to a lot of other "tough" TEs (Todd Heap is certainly one of them), but Dallas Clark has converted so many key third downs by hanging on to balls in the middle of the field while taking punishment from a converging safety.

    It's something that shouldn't be downplayed. He's kept so many drives alive.
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    Yahoo! Sports Staff pianow Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:26 pm PST
    Okay, I'm blaming the wrong element of the Dallas and Philly offenses, the short-yardage running. But here are some important stats which damn these two units:

    - Red-Zone TD percentage: Philly 23rd, Dallas 22nd

    - Red-zone trips: Philly 22nd, Dallas T18

    - Third-down conversion pct: Philly 23, Dallas 18

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