• Commissioner Corner Message Board

  • bonchprof bonchprof Mar 23, 2008 1:57 PM Flag

    What's the big deal?

    I don't understand why everyone is whining about people using the FA pool to bolster their roster for playoffs. It's part of the game. In fact, it even reflects the reality of NHL hockey. Most coaches roll with a top-six/top-nine group of forwards, and a top-4 group of defencemen, and use the remaining roster spots to rotate players into the lineup. Why shouldn't we be able to do it in fantasy? Many argue against those GMs who choose to replace their entire lineup on a daily basis, to maximize the number of games played, labelling them anything from "unsportsmanlike" to "cheaters". I disagree. Note that if they are doing this, they either have a lineup of mediocre players, or they are dropping some really good players, which will be available for the rest of the league to pick up, and will hurt them in the long run when the other teams grab these players. In my experience, a team that's got really good players playing every second or third day will still beat a team who has mediocre players playing every day.
    I'm not in a H2H league, but in my points league we have no limit on transactions, and throughout the year I've rotated "hot" players into my lineup on a daily basis. I've got a core group of players, and I've got a few roster spots that I use to rotate players in from the FA pool. Our league is not too deep, so there have been some decent pickups out there. Although one GM in the league did complain about this "cheating" early on, myself and some other GMs in the league argued that there is NO WAY this can be considered cheating. It's part of the game of fantasy hockey. If you don't like it, don't play, or set up a private league with customized settings that puts a limit on the number of transactions.
    Just a few quick thoughts on this matter as it seems to come up all the time on this message board. Thanks for reading.

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    • No big deal; just like you said, it's part of the game; if people don't like it, they don't have to play. I watch people do it and don't get any better ranking than the rest of us who don't necessarily trade our whole team every night. I use a core also and just bring in guys as needed; it doesn't hurt anything, and anyone who sees it as "cheating" or "unfair" just doesn't understand fantasy or is a rookie who doesn't see the added little benefits of it.

    • Ditto for the most part. I'll run with a regular lineup all season, but I'm a micro-manager and always lookin to upgrade. But come the playoffs I'll rotate a couple weak positions to get more skates on the ice daily. I'm currently in the finals and I've had to deal with loss of Whitney LW, as well as injuries to Hossa RW and LeClaire G...so ya, I think it's justified. But running 4 or 5 players in daily would seem a bit extreme. I have added the likes of Getzlaf, Rafalski and Chara that others recently discarded to bolster my core players...so it does benefit both sides.

      BOTTOM LINE: Active players love it and benefit from their participation. Casual players curse it and suffer from their lack of participation. Seem like a fair system to me...

    • I'm one of the streamers you are talking about. I have the 19th, 23rd and 33rd teams on the board.

      I have a girlfriend. I am not overweight. I don't live with my mom. I make a good living. Many accusations to the contrary have been levied, but that is tangential.

      I stream because I enjoy competing. I compete to win, but moreover, I compete to test myself. If i choose to do something, I choose to extract every bit of efficiency out of myself in that endeavor. It's just the way I choose to approach things. If others have a different, more casual approach, I do not judge them negatively. I respect the rights of others to play the way they want to play. That's why I've never had a bad word to say about leagues with a transaction limit. Unfortunately many people join public leagues, which have no such limit, and do not respect my right to play my way, within the rules.

      I never found streaming unfair because everyone has the same opportunity to manage their rosters effectively. Further, most have advanced warning that streaming is a strategy they may see, and it is one of the more effective ways to play.

      That's all there is to say.

      • 2 Replies to H.A.L.
      • Ditto again...

      • Except there is one thing that you are not taking into account as you satiate your vulgar ego that justifies the divine right to win while confusing the ethics of fair play - that public leagues are joined by people who by in large are acting and playing in good faith. And those same people are of all ages and genders and socioeconomic backgrounds who are playing within the limitations and scope of their respective hockey experiences and more likely are in a pool for the very first time; then along comes some small minded greedy moron who pees in the pool and thinks it's funny, thereby ruining an individuals first Hockey Pool experience and chasing them out altogether.

        Ever wonder why there are so many "dead owners" in public leagues - it's because some one pissed in the pool and they decided to get out; And who ultimately benefits by their departure - no one, because the more who play the more the opportunities for competition and more importantly the more cost effective / justifiable it is for a company like Yahoo to continue to provide the pool service for free.

        Sure call the "quitters", cry babies, or chumps or any other name you so desire but the reality is where is the sense of "competition" that you so greatly covet, ney worship - if your "competitors" don't bother to come to the field of battle, in the end you are left to only play with yourself... and we all know what that is called.

        If you want a real "challenge" and chance to win against your peers, perhaps next season you could start your streamers only league and everyone who feels the urge to play that style of lazy competition can go to H.A.L.

    • Streaming players, if done daily, effectively doubles or triples the number of games played by your 2nd and 3rd tier players, which is why I find it unfair. In a H2H matchup, the core, top level players will, for the most part, play the same number of games and get similar numbers of points and thus cancel each other out, which leaves 2nd and 3rd tier guys playing a big role in the outcome. I guarantee that if your 2nd and 3rd tier guys play seven days a week, you are going to overwhelm your opponent's equivalents who are playing only half as much. This is especially evident in the cumulative scoring categories where sheer number of opportunities can tilt these categories pretty consistently in your favor. Example: Team A streams and gets 12 extra man games over Team B from his lower level players with an average between those players of .25 goals, .33 assists, 2 SOGs, 2 PIMs, and 0.5 PPPs. Totaled that gives Team A a +3 goals, +4 assists, +24 in SOGs, +24 in PIMs, and +6 on PPPs - a sizable advantage strictly based on numbers and ability to read a calendar, not on quality of players or hockey knowledge.
      In the NHL, teams are rewarded with an extra man to punish the other team for taking a penalty because 5 on 4 is an advantage due to the numbers alone. It's the same way in fantasy if one team fields, in effect, a 20 or 30 man lineup to uneven the playing field like a power play. By streaming players, you admit that your lineup is inferior and that the only way to win is by increasing your number of players and opportunities to get points.
      Also, streaming doesn't usually hurt a team because 2nd and 3rd tier guys are often interchangeable because their stats aren't that far apart. Plus, they are usually undesirable to the GMs in a league who do have a strong lineup, so the odds of the guy you dropped getting snatched up are pretty slim. Therefore, dropping such a guy has very little risk but a big reward if you replace his slot daily with an equivalent low level player, especially if one of those low level players is on a short hot streak.
      I do agree though that the rules don't prevent streaming, so if you don't like it, go join a private league that restricts it like I am going to do in the future. In that regard, if anyone is interested in forming or currently has such a league, please post your info.

    • Once again Bonchprof and I duke it out Mano-et-mano, sort of...

      Tacitly there is nothing wrong with streaming except that it does not truly reflect the ebb and flow of the roster of just one team, something that are pools are trying to emulate. Our rosters are collections of players assembled to form a "team" and in order to keep it "competitive", "active" and "interesting", in general, our respective leagues have a significantly smaller number of teams (typically twelve) and vastly reduced active rosters (typically 15 - 20) then the real leagues that we draw our players from. By design this helps level the playing field and give all GM's at the start of the season an equal chance to win regardless of skill level, draft position and active play.

      Essentially it allows you to play with your Grandma and lets her wallop your behind without using a wooden spoon. Fair, you betcha because the idea is to have fun - and if your Grandma, who thinks sports are silly but adores you, can share an interest and interact with you from anywhere in the world at anytime then thats awesome. Because hockey pools are supposed to be social interactions, they just happen to be competitive ones. If you are some sort of chump with obsessive compulsions that sits all day in his bedroom fretting over, stats & scores and looking for some obscure competitive edge over the next pimply faced virtual warrior then my friend it is a sad life you lead.

      I think that having the ability to rotate in and out of your line-up's / active roster players from the waiver wire and free agent pool is a good thing - but there should be a reasonable limit that reflects the "typical" movements of an NHL team because after all you are only the GM for ONE TEAM not twenty.

      Based on a 12 - 16 player team, 45 rosters moves in a season seems like a reasonable number to me, that is essentially one player every two games and a couple of extra's for injuries. Although it is a number in excess of real league play - for our purposes 45 is a number that is high enough to allow us to have a little wriggle room for mistakes but low enough so that some judicious thought must prevail.

      I myself am guilty of "streaming" in my 16 team, 22 player, H2H league I drafted dead last and have had a roster plagued with injuries, I have had to make a lot of roster moves just to stay in the game (After months of careful roster selection I am number two by a country mile and have a very narrow chance to catch the top spot overall).

      In one of my points leagues, where the top two spots have shuffled back and forth between myself and another team all season long, ( where I also drafted extremely late but very well), as it is a very savvy league with at least 6 teams of twelve actively mining the free agent pool for hidden gems, I have streamed over seventy players - but some of that was pure deception designed to entangle and confound the "enemy". And damit after last years ridicule and pathetic showing in the standings their was no way in heck I was going to not finish in the top 5. There's inter-office pride and stake, not to mention the insufferable bragging of my co-workers.

      To summarize zipping players daily into and out of your line-up from the free agent pool on a daily is probably not at all very reflective of "actual" play. GM's in real life have to consider travel restrictions, cap limits, team compatibility, positional need / role and a host of other considerations - all we need to do is see which hot hand is playing what starting sieve on tomorrow slate of games.

      Sure it's fun to win, but unconscionable streaming isn't really winning, it's just a lot of time working on a cathode tan.

      • 1 Reply to Jay O
      • damn damn damn! I just wrote a reply to your post, Jay O, and inadvertently clicked my mouse on the browser window just before I hit the backspace key. And now it is gone, dammit. Oh well.

        Anyways, I started this thread in response to the frequent complaints on these message boards on the practice of "streaming". I was tired of people complaining that they were "cheated" out of victory by the "unsportsmanlike" conduct of their opponent. My position on streaming now: if you don't like it, shut up and join a weekly H2H league. It's that simple.

        Anyways it is good to hear from you again my friend, Jay O, where have you been? What's this, you've got a life? Co-workers? Well, sucks to you and your priorities. This message board has gone down the tubes without your good-humored and intelligent analysis.
        Oh, and I'm sorry to disappoint, if you were expecting some fisticuffs, mano-et-mano as it were; we are basically in agreement (again).

    • Don't know if anyone said this cause i'm too lazy to read every post. Anyway, the leaders of the H2H leagues have made hundreds and some over 1000 moves in a season. They've got the highiest points in all the yahoo leagues. Seems to be a sucessful strategy to me.

    • all I got to say is that I picked up Mike Richards and someone else picked up Keith Tkachuk on waiver claims. I am in a pretty large H2H league and since they were day to day someone dropped them midweek to try and surive. THere is no reason any of those players should ever be dropped. I happened to luck out and get richards only because I somehow had a higher waiver claim than another guy. During season that would be stupidity as they are only out temporarily but in playoffs it doesn't hurt them if they are going to lose anyways there should at least be maybe a weekly lock or something so the people in close ones dont do desperation moves like that on the last day giving top quality players away in a waiver lottery messing up all of the hard work people have done to build a solid team all season long. The playoffs should be a testiment of the hard work you've done building a team all season not the lucky pickups of stud players in the middle of the playoffs, because that would never happen in real life.

      Maybe if Yahoo just gave people with DTD players a temporary extra roster spot it could eliminate at least the issues I have with add drops.

    • i'm in a weekly league where we run 3 lw,3 c , 3 rw , 4 d-men and two goalies with 5 bench...oh yah, this is a 10 player keeper too. i was rotating one hot forward from waivers into my line-up all year(44 moves-no max). it seemed to help in those weeks when compitition was tight, as all our owners are well educated in nhl players and there ability. well now it gets interesting, one owner asks that rosters should be frozen(no add/drop of players) after the trade deadline.....one post, two posts,three posts and suddenly i'm on the outside lookin in and having to change my strategy, no more add/drops. needless to say i went on a bit of a rant and said this should have been agreed upon at the beginning of the year not at trade deadline day! well as i sit back tonite (sunday) looking at the match ups, guess who sqeaked into the finals, well that would be me....thanks in large part to mike richard's boarding call in the final minutes of the flyers game, to break the match-up tie we were looked into pretty much all week. so what i have learned here in my rookie year of fantasy hockey is just because you were thrown a curve-ball, sit back and knock that f _ _ kin thing out of the ballpark!!.....there are some pretty smart dudes on this message board that i have come to respect and hope we all can wade though the bullcrap these other idiots put out there. READ YAH ALL NEXT YEAR BOYS AND GIRLS!!!

    • I'm not sure where this argument is going. These have been the rules for years. Is it ideal, no, but the only way to combat it is to join a weekly league where you set your team for the week. Unfortunately, that isn't fair either since you can have the best team, but be a victim of the schedule where your best players only play 2x whereas the other teams best plays 4x . The only way to make up for that is Free agents. The rules are the same for everybody, so you need to act accordingly. I've played people who get up at 3am ET to get the best free agents. Do I like it, no, but I do have a choice. I can get up at 3am, too. It depends how much of a nerd you are and how important winning is. In the end, you determine what you're willing and not willing to do to win.

      • 1 Reply to Gary P
      • The scheduling issue is precisely why I don't play H2H leagues. It's a dumb format. Also, why would you want to have "playoffs" at the end of the regular season anyways? Many players are hurt or injured, and some of the top players are resting for the playoffs. And like you said, you can lose it all just because you have players on teams with less games in the playoffs. It's dumb. All the work you put in to your team over the season comes down to the last few games. I like a good old fashioned points league. Rotisserie format can be fun too.

    • your right..im my league im the commish..and..i go ahead and switch players alot....its not cheating....i dont see anything wrong with getting players who are on a point streak if it will help your team....the only way that i would say that dropping players left and right as a commish is wrong ..is when he/she doesnt let anyone else get anyone else by not allowing the other player to pick them up...............for what you wrote its true......WHY NOT DROP PLAYERS WHO ARE'NT DOING SO HOT FOR ONES THAT ARE...ITS ONLY NATURAL

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