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  • ABlueMenace ABlueMenace Dec 14, 2007 9:33 PM Flag

    Explain why points are given for penalties.

    Credit is given for penalties. I understand there can be a "good penalty", but credit for a misconduct ? How does this make sense in a fantsy league.

    My assumption was that a penalty would subtract points - not add.

    WHY ??

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    • its stupid, and the way some of the guys on here justify it pretty much proves that they don't really watch hockey

      i think the real reason it's a positive stat is because hockey doesn't have enough stats to be a premier fantasy sport, so yahoo had to come up with extra stat categories like shooting% or power play assists to make it seem viable in roto and h2h leagues (in my personal opinion i think hockey works best in a simple pts league, baseball a roto and football a h2h)

      another reason i guess is because of the 5 min fighting major, lets face it, fights are cool and can help change the tide of the game, and i suppose that's where you would make up the majority of your gains in PIMs...however all you really need is just a couple bonehead players like McCabe, and your PIM column is full of minors

      I'm in a league where PIMs are negative, its not fun to see your goals cut down because your guy took a pair of obstruction calls. I'm also in a roto league that counts PIMs as positive and I'm near that bottom of that league because of my failure to prepare for the commish's stat selections (and everyone in the league is a slot stuffer, so we'll wait and see) so it does cut both ways.

    • I agree. Points for penalties makes no sense. We've eliminated that category from our league so we don't need bruisers and goons.

    • In the new NHL (after the lockout) there is no point to have points for PIMs. PIMs should be negative or just eliminated for the purpose of scoring. PIMs in are detrimental in real and fantasy hockey, although in real hockey it does serve a purpose of sending a message you give up more power plays than before the lockout hence more power play goals.

    • I'm with you ! When I first got into this junk I could not believe ! was losing a category because I didn't have ENOUGH PIM !!!

    • A lot of this discussion completely misses the point. "Rewarding" fantasy teams for PIM is simply an artificial mechanism that encourages using players that wouldn't be used otherwise on fantasy teams - and even though that mechanism is artificial within fantasy sports, in the end it mimics “real” hockey better because you end up using more players (not just scorers) as a real-life team would.

      Further it adds a layer of strategy otherwise absent in fantasy hockey. The main problem with fantasy hockey is that there’s a lack of variety (and thus strategical choices) because basically every scoring category addresses a single element of the game: Scoring goals. I’m playing in a league this year without PIM and it’s the biggest mistake I made. There’s less strategy (all you have to do is amass scorers) and thus it rewards the poorer and lazier players.

      Fantasy sports = Mathematics. Discussing the positives or negatives of penalties in hockey is completely moot here, although it makes for an amusing discussion.

    • I don't like leagues that award penalty minutes either. That's why I only join leagues that don't have penalty minutes as a stat. I don't join public leagues because they're not very competitive anyway (for the most part - there's alaways exceptions)
      Some people like penalty minutes as a stat in fanatsy hockey. To each their own.

      Bottom line is, if you don't like penalty minutes as a stat, look for private leagues that don't use it. There are plenty out there.

    • Part three

      To each of us individually, the merits of whether a particular players conduct, or a set of rules, or that cheap shot on your favorite player that took him out of the line-up for a period of time is a matter of personal interpretation, which is often a subjective and emotional response that on occasion is collectively shared. And the powers that be at the NHL, collectively generate, modify, govern and steward the rules of play, conduct, discipline and sportsmanship as they see fit and deem appropriate for the presentation of their product and their employees - our "heroes". Rightly or wrongly, its their ship, we are just along for the ride and pay for the privilege to hop on board.

      How penalties are applied to our hockey pools is a matter of personal taste, for me, I Iike them - for others there application is less desirable. But each persons opinion is completely valid and should not be discounted. Therefore if you don't like penalty "reward" systems then join a club that doesn't have them. Thats really the heart of my initial response to Abluemeanie.

      And finally, whether or not Meanie is a newbie or not also doesn't really matter because his initial question is a terrific one - just look at the responses that it a has elicited.

    • Part two

      Penalties unto themselves are also random chaotic events - how so you ask? Because a player or players need to behave in a manner that is first witnessed, then recognized and finally elicit a reaction from a referee or linesman. The referee must then instantly decide to penalize or ignore the conduct or infraction based on a number of criteria that none of us are privy too (other than the rules of play); If the referee choses to act, they must do so during the course of, and only limited to, the immediate duration of play (Total time limit of the game) and as outlined by the rules of conduct, assign what is in their opinion a fair and just punishment on behalf of the aggrieved. We have all seen bad calls, missed calls, over or under penalized calls or just plain old turning of a blind eye - right, wrong, fair, just, it all doesn't really matter because, although intended to be governed by the boundaries of common behavior (the rules), it is still a random response to a set of random actions.

      One could argue that their is a causal effect on each detrimental action during the course of play such as if you high stick someone you get to sit in the box and feel shame - however that only happens if someone responds to the initial infraction and that the punishment is clearly and irrefutably defined. Again the rules may say "if this happens then the response shall be..." however we are talking about people that, despite their training and best intentions, will still have instinctual or emotional response to the events that occur around them. And those responses are immediate reactions that are also subject to change.

      At what point is the player responsible? As cold, callous and cruel as this may sound - it doesn't really matter, because even if a player acts with full intent, during the course of play all of the reaction is still governed by chance. (However that doesn't limit further disciplinary action by league, team or retaliation by other players after the fact - again random actions)

      "Maybe when the puck drops I give him a little nudge, then maybe he spears me in the gut, then maybe I wash his face as we crash into the boards, then maybe he drops the gloves, then maybe the linesman gets between us before I knock his block off, then maybe I get a fighting major, then maybe my captain argues successfully that the other guy should get an extra two for roughing, then maybe with the man advantage we score the winning goal."

      Like goals and assists and shots and save percentages and faceoffs - penalties are a detail that influences the outcome of a game and thus, for the purposes of our entertainment, can be assigned, at the commissioners discretion in or respective leagues, any value. We might not like how penalties are applied or influence a game, but I think we can all agree that they do alter the "predictable" course of a play.

    • Part one.

      Just in case Abluemeanie's diatribe is directed at me - and yes opinions are like A**hole's everyones got one - I will append my previous post as my original intent may have been misunderstood.

      Sports are a metaphor for life - and each is governed by parameters or "rules" which outline (not necessarily dictate) the boundaries of behavior and define practiced and measured responses. The realm of probability indicates that "you wake up, go to work, cash a paycheck" and that is a predictable (but not guaranteed) response to a set of repeating circumstances; that is until those circumstances are modified or influenced by change. Some of those changes maybe minor such as "woke up, it snowed, got the day off, cashed a paycheck" or they may have greater impact to the realm of probability and set in motion an entirely different course of action; "Got up, went to work, got hit by a car....".

      Same goes for hockey, "you drop a puck, hit it with a stick, it goes in the net." - that is until, as a homage to Craig Ludwig and his flared shin pads, someone drops to the ice and blocks the shot.

      Those influences are essentially random chaotic events that effect a change to a series of repeated gestures thereby modifying the predictable outcome of known circumstances. A rate of change may be incidental or profound, but no matter how seemingly insignificant, any contributing factor to a measured set of criteria will modify the results in some manner. Thats the details of life; and the elegance in the microcosm that is hockey.

      What does Chaos Theory have to do with penalties? It's simple, random chaotic events are the little things that occur during a game. Missed checking assignments, the bobbled puck, the shot that ricochets of the goalies best friend instead of finding its way into the red light district, and of course, the guy sitting in the box because there are too many men on the ice; These are all random chaotic events that are modifications to practiced and measured responses. The ebb and flow of the game is a constant flux of action and reaction, whether successful or not, between numerous participants - each with there own practiced and measured responses to a seemingly predictable and repeating set of circumstances. Which all boils down to a bunch of guys running around like crazy trying to tickle the twine. And the key word is trying - because nothings guaranteed.

      The realm of probability indicates that the best players on the best team will overcome any and all adversity, but we all know that on any given Sunday, anyone can win. That is the randomness of sport that makes it exciting to watch and fun to play.

      And it's in agonizing over the random chaotic events that occur during a game that keep us interested - and in the case of this sorry lot (the proverbial collective "We") - engaged in a hockey pool arguing and comparing the relative merits, semantics, nuances and details of people and how they behave on the field of "combat".

    • I would assume that it is because it makes the leagues more interesting and more of a challenge - you might now want to consider sticking in a real bad ass amongst your defenders to try and rack up some penalty minutes - and it also gives more fantasy league value to forwards who are considered defensive or two way - since these guys are more likely to take penalty minutes in their jobs.

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