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    Roto Arcade

    Spin Doctors: Billy Butler vs. Paul Goldschmidt

    Some believe this might be the year Billy finally busts out (AP)

    As usual, first base is an overloaded position chock full of value. In this edition of The Spin, Y! fantasy pundits Scott Pianowski and Brad Evans exchange blows over underrated mid-rounders Billy Butler (ADP: 120.9) and Paul Goldschmidt (145.8). Read. Reflect. And declare a winner in the comments section below.

    The Piano Man bats for Billy: The buzzy sophomore is my sworn enemy in fantasy baseball, and with that in mind, I can't stump for Paul Goldschmidt. It's going to be a little messy getting in the way of the Billy Butler/Brad Evans love affair, but I'll take the assignment.

    Goldie's power stroke gets your attention and it's nice that he clubbed eight homers when he finally made it to Arizona last year, but there's a ton of batting-average risk with this cat. A whopping 53 strikeouts over 156 at-bats? That's air conditioning. And if Goldschmidt doesn't show something against lefties (he was 6-for-37 against them with the Snakes, tiny sample and all), does Kirk Gibson go against convention and sit the righty a few times a week, force a caddy into the mix? A credible two months does not make you a bona-fide major leaguer.

    Butler's become one of those unsexy veterans who no longer forces a wrestling match on draft day, but I'm still intrigued here. You're getting a safe batting average (he's at .291, .318 and .301 over the last three years), durability (only 10 missed games over that span), and run production (two seasons over 93 RBIs, improving Kansas City lineup). And although Butler is primarily a DH these days, we've got your back, gamer: he still carries first-base eligibility in Yahoo's 2012 game.

    Butler's power doesn't move the needle at first base, but he's still a pup — he turns 26 in the middle of April. Growth could be on the way. But even if he stays close to the three-year norm he's established, that's enough for me: he's the right pick in this debate. Batting average is a silent killer in roto, one of the most under-appreciated stats. Stick with the Bulldog you know: Butler.

    Okay, Bradley, tell us all About Schmidt.

    The Noise is seriously pounding the Goldschlager this season (AP)The Noise pans for Gold: Admittedly, this is a cruel exercise. For years, I've harbored inappropriate feelings for Butler, making outrageous predictions about numbers never completely realized. Arms were outstretched. Restraining orders filed. Disappointment felt. Though my man-crush for Blizzy B has only slightly waned there's a new boy toy in the Noise's life.

    Holy Schmidt, indeed.

    As his last name implies, Goldschmidt will be a precious commodity to own this season. The 6-foot-3, 245-pound masher is a blend of herculean power (419.4 feet/home run average in '11) and surprising speed. Though he'll likely pile up the Ks, most scouts believe his recognition and adjustment skills are better than advertised. Occasional turbulence will occur, but he should produce steady numbers over much of the season, especially within the confines of homer-happy Chase Field.

    Last year, Goldschmidt stood out down the stretch. After humiliating Double-A pitchers for most of the season, he bypassed Triple-A en route to an early August big league promotion. His production translated instantly. Over 156 at-bats, he totaled a .250 BA with eight homers, 26 RBIs and 28 runs. He also chipped in four steals. On a per game basis, he ranked in the same tier as roster mainstays Andrew McCutchen, Jay Bruce, Rickie Weeks and B.J. Upton. Extrapolate his 2011 effort over 550 at-bats (.250-28-92-90-14), and the rising star is essentially a discounted version of Mike Stanton. Buyers are robbing leaguemates blind at his current pick 145.8 ADP in average mixers. No doubt, he'll be one of the more profitable mid-round picks this year.

    Butler will always have a soft spot in my heart, but he is pricier and his sub-.200 ISO (Goldy's in '11 was .224) implies a significantly lower power ceiling. Yes, Billy will hit some 30-40 points higher than the Snake, but the latter will likely match his production in runs and RBIs and greatly outdistance him in homers and steals — two cats outweigh one.

    Wait on Goldschmidt a round or three later and you're bound to strike it rich.

    Need more advice? Follow Brad (@YahooNoise) and Scott (@Scott_Pianowski) on Twitter. You're also invited to follow Roto Arcade on Facebook.

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    21 comments

    • Kyle  •  2 months ago
      If Goldschmidt s striking out a 1/3 of the time in his first year, what are pitchers going to do to him once they see him for a full season (see Chris Davis). Too many question marks at this point and such a small sample size. You know you are getting with Butler around .300 w/90 RBI and he's just entering his power age. I think its WAY WAY more reasonable to assume that Butler hits an extra 6 home runs and with Hosmer and Moust developing further, his RBI and run totals are probably even higher. I see him as a 300/25/100. Not bad for his ADP. He looks to be almost "sleeperish" where he is going, and steals??? Really? Since when do you pay attention to steals when looking at 1B?
      • M. 2 months ago
        Strikeouts are one of the worst things on which to predict a player's performance. Of the top 10 home run hitters last season, 9 out of 10 had over 100 Ks and 6 had over 150. You see similar (although not quite as overwhelming) numbers when it comes to OBP.

        Btw, as a Royals fan, I can pretty much guarantee that Butler won't hit 6 extra homers this year. Sure it's possible, but 25 homers is going to be his ceiling. Goldschmidt's ceiling looks to be closer to 40.
      • Adam 2 months ago
        So, because you're a Royals fan, you can "pretty much guarantee" how many HR's Butler will/won't hit? Wow. Interesting. Here's my view/opinion. Butler will be 26 in April, he's been in the league for, what, 5 years now(6th this season, and 5th full season overall)? He's about in his "peak years" now, correct? Butler is surrounded by better talent now, perhaps the best lineup he's been in during his time with KC. In my opinion, it's a safer bet that Butler increases his HR total over the next 2-3 years to, say, 25-35 HR's a season. I understand Kauffman stadium isn't exactly known as a hitters-park, however, Butler has a good bat, a propensity to get on base, and now a good lineup. Perhaps now he can "swing for the fences" more than in previous years, increase his FB%, which wouldn't be surprising at all. Butler did hit 13 HR's after the All-Star break last season as well...so, I'm not sure why people think Butler is "limited" to about 20 HR's a season...
      • Adam 2 months ago
        And about Goldschmidt...I don't believe that Kyle is saying just because Goldschmidt struck out a lot last season that he won't be productive this season. I think it's very safe to say that because of Goldschmidts very long swing(many scouts say he has too many holes in his swing) that he's very prone to a high k-rate. Yes, Goldschmidt has more power than Butler, but, so does Chris Davis and Mark Reynolds...and SB's? Please, I'm not not drafting my 1B because of his speed! Yes, SB's are a bonus, but, I'll take Butler over Goldschmidt ALL DAY!
    • dagoldeneagle  •  2 months ago
      All this hype about Goldschmidt but he's not any better than Mike Jacobs or Russell Branyan. Anyone who drafts him at his yahoo rank is an idiot. I'm not even sure if he's any better than the guy he replaced: Juan Miranda. In Goldschmidt's very small sample size last year (150 at bats), he struck out a third of the time and only hit .250 with a barely acceptable (for a first baseman) .808 OPS. Miranda had almost the same number after 150 at bats with slightly less strikeout and actually a higher OPS before slumping badly in June that culminated with him getting sent down and eventually DFAed. It wouldn't surprise me if Goldschmidt gets sent down before the season is over.
    • RonnyW33  •  Cambridge, Massachusetts  •  2 months ago
      PLEASE San Francisco....I beg you to realize what you are doing to your roster with Aubrey Huff at 1B. Act like it's Thanksgiving and unleash the BELT!

      P.s. See you in the Spin Doctors next year Brandon.
    • OCCH  •  Montreal, Canada  •  2 months ago
      I like Goldschimdt, I really do, but given his draft day price he won't find his way on any of my teams. that being said, I think I'd still rather have him over Billy Butler, but in an ideal world, I have neither. Freeman vs. Goldschidmt would have been more interesting
    • Matt  •  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania  •  2 months ago
      Golden rule of fantasy sports: Do the opposite of what Evans says and you'll win your league.
    • Beau  •  2 months ago
      Butler's FB% saw a large jump from a 25.6% in May to almost 47% in August. Which resulted in 13 post asb hr's compared to a paltry 6hr pre-asb. The conclusion could be made that Butler will now be a 25+ HR guy going forward in 2012 making him a safer bet than Goldie.
      • Fitzy 2 months ago
        He had a good stretch coming out of the ASB -- so what? It's not even like he ended the season hot (something that's rather overrated to begin with) -- dude only jacked 3 bombs from Aug. 24-Sept. 28. What happened to his FB% in September? Like Kid said, he's all over the map in almost any reasonably measurable power metric for any extended duration (i.e. longer than one fluky month).

        If you're the kind of guy that gets sold on meaningless splits and false trends (and it certainly appears that you are), I'd love to play in a league with you.
      • Beau 2 months ago
        Fact: Over the post asb stretch of 284 ab's he was able to carry a FB% 8% higher than his career 34.2% and that led to his strongest 1/2 season power wise. Now.. It could be reasonably assumed that this was due to a changed approach at the plate which MIGHT be carried over to this season. That is all. I eagerly await your insulting response.
      • Fitzy 2 months ago
        No insult here -- you could very well be right. I'm not particularly inclined to think so, based on the given evidence. Then again, I hardly ever watch the Royals play, so who knows? I think he just had a very good July, and had a weekend where he was completely locked-in (an insane stretch of 4 consecutive games where he went 9/19 with 5 HRs and 10 RBIs).

        We shall see.
    • Matt0330  •  3 months ago
      Truly miniscule sample for Paul Goldschmidt against LHP & the dude absolutely feasted on southpaws as a minor leaguer. This wouldn't be a concern for me. As for the strikeout thing, I'm not really vexed by this issue at all as the walk rate is strong & Goldschmidt improved during his short trial & in the playoffs. (He's so patient that it was almost a to a fault initially) I think that watching this kid and his approach is extremely informative I think he's capable of hitting closer to .275 than .250 actually a his comfort level grows.

      I'm higher on Goldschmidt than most & I'd rank he & Billy Butler similarly in a mixed league in terms of auction dollars ($12-13 probably) but I'd probably side with the guy who offers some real upside in the thumping categories. I think that Goldschmidt is capable of a Michael Stanton-esque slash line (as Rich Rodriguez's doppleganger opined) & he'll come a lot cheaper. CI gold in roto leagues for a team that gets more established options at 1b & 3b, thy name is Goldschmidt.
      • Adam 2 months ago
        While I do like the power that Goldschmidt provides, I'm certainly not sold on this kid. Yes, he had a decent walk-rate and he actually did well in the playoffs. But, the guy will have his first full season this year, and as pitchers figure him out, I can see his k-rate increasing this season. He's going to face some very good pitchers in the NL West, and over the course of a full season, he's going to have his slumps here in his rookie season. I'll take the proven veteran(Butler, who is still only 26(in April) over an unproven, high-strike out, power hitter in Goldschmidt
    • Christopher K  •  Bristol, Tennessee  •  2 months ago
      Butler, at age 26, can look forward to entering the time when RBI producers tend to ascend into their prime home run years of their careers. With an emerging lineup blossoming around him, his best years may be ahead of him
      • Adam 2 months ago
        I agree 100%
    • Zachary  •  2 months ago
      Billy Butler is a no doubter over whatshisface. Paul hasn't Proven nearly enough, but he is definitely worth a late round pick.
    • Kid  •  3 months ago
      Butler is a great batting average stalwart because of the contact (83% career, which is great for a big guy) and the batted ball profile (1.37 GB/FB career, healthy 18% LD rate). He has oscillated between 8% HR/FB and 12% HR/FB in his five active years - in no discernible order - so pencil in say 10% HR/FB for 2012 for about 20 HR. If he'd shown some growth trend in this category over the past five years we could reasonably project a power spurt due to physical development. But there appears to be no trend - like I said, the power marks are all over the map.

      The Stanton-lite comp for Goldy(ie) makes sense - both are hanging out in that high-60%/ultra low 70% contact range, which makes a .260 batting average more likely than a .290 batting average. And both are whiffing at about a 30% clip. Power-wise, Goldmember ("I like goooooooold") basically doubled what Butler did last year (21% vs. 11%), so you know where to go if you desire thump.

      Both can please fantasy owners. But only one can please Brad.
      • Adam 2 months ago
        As always, great analysis Kid...who would you take between the two? I'd take Butler over Goldschmidt myself. Yes, Goldschmidt has better power numbers, however, his contact and K-rate aren't too appealing...Goldschmidt reminds me of Richie Sexson and/or Adam Dunn...however, I'm not so sure about how successful Goldschmidt will be...
    • Justin  •  Milwaukee, Wisconsin  •  3 months ago
      great article per usual. 1b is surprisingly deep this year. that said please do a spin doctors: adam jones vs. michael cuddyer. pretty please.
    • RedSoxManiac  •  Springfield, Massachusetts  •  3 months ago
      Also, Butler HR talents are not going to be showcased in Kauffman. If we can use history as an example who are the last players to hit 30+ homeruns in that park in the last 2 decades? Dye? Beltran (don't think so)? Chili Davis (yea, that Chili Davis)? Mike Sweeney?

      That ballpark stifles homeruns, but the outfield area is so broad that if you need to stack 2B & 3B & TB you won't have as much of an issue. Especially for 1st base, the top picks are going to mash, so I would go for Butler as a steady backup that could keep your stats in check in event of an injury. Gold is going to be great, but like Stanton, he'll infuriate you when (and not if) he goes into those newbie slumps. Newbie slumps can cost you games head-to-head.

      Plus, there is no guaranteed protection in that Arizona lineup. When that team struggles, they struggle hard. And Upton & Drew don't scare anyone in the NL West, especially if 35-40 of those games are on the road in bigger parks with much more dominant pitching.

      If you believe Gold breaks out this year, he's your pick. Otherwise, too erratic of a pick in relation to a budding Royals offense that is stable. Butler, of course he won't give you HR. But he and that Royals lineup knows how to hit in that stadium, so at least the TBs will be there. As for Gold, he can end up like Mark Reynolds. Which year who knows? Which hair folicles I'll pull out in 2012 for his pick, I don't know either.
    • pianow  •  3 months ago
      We can't even agree on Goldy vs. Goldie. It's a blood bath.
    • Matt F  •  Lethbridge, Canada  •  2 months ago
      Goldschmidt over butler. If he improves his BA just by 10 points, he'll outperform butler easily in every other category except maybe doubles.
    • tyme2surf13  •  2 months ago
      butler all the way. the notion hes somehow not the same hitter is crazy. hes only 26 and a potential 200 hit guy with 100rbis and 20hrs. Goldschmidt has a lot of upside but was horrible against lefties last year making him more of a risky play. going with the safe bet, Billy Butler
    • Adam  •  Providence, Rhode Island  •  2 months ago
      Goldschmidt reminds me of Richie Sexson...In this debate, I'd take Butler over Goldshcmidt all day, especially in the Royals' improving lineup.
    • Weldon Alexander  •  Walden, New York  •  2 months ago
      Its officially fantasy baseball season now that Evans has scratched his Billy Butler man crush itch. I got your back Brad. Butler is going to RAKE this season, it is time.
    • Fitzy  •  3 months ago
      Well, he signs his autograph "Goldy," so it would appear to be +1 for Bradley (unless he has somehow shown reason to be deceitful about the spelling of his nickname?). Incidentally, I sign my autographs "Fitzy," not "Fitzie" -- so that just *has* to be the right answer.

      Why wasn't this a pressing question for the Arizona Diamondbacks? It certainly seems a lot more important to me than writing 300 words on how A.J. Burnett will affect the Yankees' season.

      Team Goldy. The only "growth" that is "on the way" for Mr. Butler is a further expansion of his gut -- the beginning of which coincided with the arrival of Burger King's "new fries" (the #2 event circled in his offseason calendar, right behind attending the world premier of "The Vow" with his longtime "Twilight" buddy Alex Gordon).
    • A-Dub  •  Phoenix, Arizona  •  2 months ago
      you can't simply extrapolate what he did in 2 months and assume he will do that in his first full season in the majors. You're safer assuming he'll hit the rookie wall somewhere in August and end up with more like a 20/70/70/8 line all with the Adam Dunn-like avg. Are you willing to take that hit for those mediocre 1B numbers? I'm not, Billy will give at least those numbers (minus the whopping 8-15 SB which you're not draft you're 1B to do anyway) but he will be one of your better avg guys too.
    • Daniel  •  Columbus, Georgia  •  2 months ago
      I agree, Evans is easily mistaken for a woman at clubs. So if he recommends something, why not "do" the exact opposite? How this guy could even be given TV time is beyond my belief.

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